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  • [-]I confess, I spanked my DS twice this weekend. I never thought I'd do this, but he has been impossible lately and it just happened. I feel terrible.

    21 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    01.25.09, 02:35 PM [ Flag ]
    • Buck up. He deserved it.

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      01.25.09, 02:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • are you making fun of me?

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        01.25.09, 02:37 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • not at all!

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          01.25.09, 02:38 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I feel really bad. He's almost 3, so am hoping he won't even remember...Dh also lost it with him once, though did not spank. I find this age very trying....

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            01.25.09, 02:39 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • You need to get over the guilt. Spanking is often the only appropriate means of discipline.

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              01.25.09, 02:45 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • he gets on these jags, doesn't listen, and then laughs when you try to talk to him about his bad behavior. And he's 3!

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                01.25.09, 02:45 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • dont talk about it. put him in a time out. give him a choice, either you listen or you will be ina time out and feel sad. your choice. let him choose and act on it immediately

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                  01.25.09, 03:04 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • I spanked my children when I felt they needed it just like my mom spanked us when we needed it. I don't hate my mother for making me mind just the opposite, lets face it "time outs" are not working. Kids have little to no respect for their parents these days. They used to take kids out to the barn and use a switch on them. There is a big difference between spanking and beating. You have to remember not to strike your child out of anger but rather as a teaching mechanism. Spanking in anger can get out of hand and can become a beating.

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                01.31.09, 10:13 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • When you feel like that, you have to walk away. You can't hit your child. And he will remember,btw

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      01.25.09, 03:02 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • ita. i suck as a mom in so many ways, but i have never, ever hit my dc.

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        01.25.09, 04:08 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • agree. Check out some parenting books. As someone who was spanked I know it only makes most kids more defiant. Re direct, end activity etc.

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        01.25.09, 04:34 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It concerns me that many of us were brought up that spanking was OK, but our generation scolds those who would consider it like they are cave people. There is kind of a disconnect here. My DH, for ex., doesn't care what I say re disciplining & is not about to p/u a book on the topic, so just goes w/ what his parents said/did to him. He threatens DCs with slapping/spanking & has locked kids in bathroom. I know it is silly to have expectations of public schools to step in here, but I feel like I am not alone & that there are many parents living with this legacy who meed to be "retrained" about discipline. DCs' school for ex. has many families from vary traditional cultures, recent immigrants, so I would think maybe there other families where ...

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      01.25.09, 03:48 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • This is usually how spanking happens...you just run out of options and can't think straight. It's not the end of the world, but it's also very healthy to feel bad about it. Try to think calmly about how to handle it next time, and avoid it.

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      01.25.09, 04:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • NP That sounds like good advie. Def not the way to go but obviously easy to lose our cool. OP for what it is worth had a friend really struggling w/her ds at around this age and actually saw a social worker to brainstorm some ways to come up with discipline as well as positive reinforcement, she said it helped incredibly, so perhaps you can look in to this for you (very short term, like 6 sessions or whatever....)

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        01.25.09, 04:28 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i was spanked all the time as a child, as were my sisters, as were our friends, what is so wrong with it? I don't associate spanking with beating your child, there is a definite line there...

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      01.25.09, 04:59 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • If it was so effective and there are 2 days in the weekend...the second spanking speaks to the uselessnes and potential detriment of spanking.

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        01.25.09, 06:15 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Ditto. Nothing wrong with a swat to a two year old.

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        01.26.09, 05:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • get the Ames book: Your 3YO. seriously. it's short, to the point, and I always found that when I understood why they were acting that way, it made me a lot more patient with the behavior. you have to remember, he's just trying to figure out his role in life and that involves pushing back. it's normal for that age

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      01.25.09, 06:25 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I know you feel badly or you wouldn't be on here 'confessing' but it seems from your post that there is a part of you that knows it's wrong. 'Spanking' seems to be a word that we use to excuse that fact that you HIT a child. You HIT your own child. What would you say or now what will you say to that same child that goes to the playground and expresses his frustration by hitting another child? As the poster said above - read the books, walk away - have something in place that will give you just that brief moment to let the anger and frustration pass so that you are not physical with your child.

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        01.26.09, 06:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • it is understood that children are forming their own personalities. You also have to remember that too much liberty will have the opposite effect you are hoping for. You can punish your child, spank them it sets the boundaries appropriate for that age. As they get older and they can really understand your explainations the punishment is adjusted according to their age and comprehension. Do you not see the difference in the generations? My mother respected her mother as I respect my mother and my children respect me. I laid down strict rules guidelines for my children because I was the adult. You have children striking their parents these days and threatening to call the state on them if they say or do something the child doesn't like...

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        01.31.09, 10:30 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
  • [-]I have a lot of guilt. I'm an ivy league-educated lawyer who always imagined myself juggling a competitive, demanding job with raising a happy family. Now that I'm a mom I find that I want to spend a maximum of 15 hours a week working so that I can spend more time with my two children (oldest is 2 y.o. and second is due this spring). I also want time to do things that I enjoy - like exercising to stay in shape, cooking healthy meals for my family, reading great books and gardening. I feel like I've turned into a wannabe 1950s housewife and will ultimately disappoint myself and my peers, but my desire to drop out of the competitive career path I've chosen is profound. DH is also disappointed and concerned about losing nearly half our fa...

    69 replies [ Reply | Watch | Options ]
    01.29.09, 09:02 AM [ Flag ]
    • Can you guys afford it? Your education gives you options. You can choose to opt out of the rat race and there is no need to feel guilty about it.

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      01.29.09, 09:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • op: Depends on if I can make our finances work with $4400/month left over after taxes and mortgage payment.

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        01.29.09, 09:14 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • You can totally do that - we live on $2,000 a month (not including rent or tuition) with 4 kids in Manhattan.

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          01.29.09, 12:57 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • wow - so that $2,000 covers utilities, insurance, car or student loans, groceries, clothes and all the other incidentals associated with raising kids?

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            01.29.09, 01:18 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • You are me! Except IANAL. I don't want to go back to work, & DH just isn't sympathetic, even though it's not a $ issue. I'm afraid of what it will do to my marriage, but going to the office is killing me.

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      01.29.09, 09:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • what is ianal?

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        01.29.09, 09:59 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I am not a lawyer.

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          01.29.09, 10:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • Turn it around. How would YOU feel if DH suddenly decided he did not want to work anymore and wanted to stay home with the kids? I understand you want to spend time with your children, but DH is a part of the family too and his opinion counts. It's not really fair of you to pinch the family's way of life so you can be with the kids the few years they need you at home. THe likelihood is you won't be able to get another job at the income level you're at now if you drop out now.

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            01.29.09, 12:01 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It's so normal to feel this way at this stage of your life. Your priorities are shifting and it can make you feel stressed and confused. As a SAHM who gave up a rewarding creative career I will say that your 1950s fantasies are just fantasies--this job is no picnic either. It can be boring, hard, lonely and demoralizing. That said, it is absolutely your prerogative to seek the balanced life you want.

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      01.29.09, 09:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • It's hard...I'm the complete opposite. Always envisoned being SAH and doing as you describe. After I had DC, I sprinted back to work and haven't looked back. Not cut out to SAH and have enormous guilt over ot. I can't win...sigh. GL with whatever you decide.

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      01.29.09, 09:11 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I personally would feel guilty if I were in your situation - you spent a lot of (your or parent's) money on those degrees and it's all for naught. If your DH is already disappointed, it's not going to get any better. He'll start to resent you for taking the easy life and leaving him to bring in the money alone.

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      01.29.09, 09:11 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Caring for children and running the home is not "taking the easy life." I've done both and, in our case, our family (including DH) has benefited from my choosing homemaking over a finance career. We reduced our lifestyle to live (and save) on one income and it's worked out great. Don't feel guilty, but make sure you reduce your overhead and take care of DH so he can enjoy the benefits, too.

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        01.29.09, 09:21 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I do consider it the easy life compared to working but still successfully taking care of your kids, home, husband. My mom was my role model for this. My other SAHM relatives (aunts, older cousins, grandmother) admit it's a much more relaxed life.

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          01.29.09, 09:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • I respectfully disagree. I could spend countless hours just reading up on waht stage of her intellectual, emotional deleopment my dd is on. Let alone time spent on differnt play activities, cooking and cleaning. AND when i was home with her those first 9 mos- i took her out- to class, museums, visting family and freinds. I was exhausted and I always felt like I was behind. I still do. Just "teaching" how to share is a 100 hr (more) endeavor.

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            01.29.09, 09:51 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • np: i think in the long run it can definitely be more relaxing. i guess my question would be why is it a bad thing for someone to want a more relaxing life. i'm not talking about the moms who marry money so they can sit and play tennis all day. but why is it bad to say 1. i'm tired of the rat race and 2. i have something better to do with my time (being home with my kids more) and the two combined can be the right decision. why keep a stressful job and a stressful lifestyle just b/c you spent a lot of money on the education and you thought it would be what you wanted?

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              01.29.09, 09:56 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • nnp: I had a career & became a SAHM mom. It is easier even tho I take my job as parent as seriously as anyone. My life is nice. But poster above comments interest me. I do feel like my WOHM friends look down on me. You only live life once so isn't it stupid not to enjoy it as much as you can. I feel like my friends think they are noble & I'm a throw back because I'm not spending my life in a frenzy.

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                01.29.09, 10:04 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • I think it is harder to be at home! You can feel isolated, a child requires an incedible amount of patience. money is the only thing that keeps me from being home with my dd. i cannot imagine looking down on a SAHM. being a mom is the best and hardest job I have ever had. and I have worked 80 hr weeks back to back. i guess everyone is differnt but I dont see what is noble abt being part of teh frenzy. I guess it can be but it is all about what you like- some moms like that, some moms dont.

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                  01.29.09, 01:05 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • What I don't get is why do woen think these choices are some kind of entitlement? Your husband doesn't think he has that choice.

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                01.29.09, 11:48 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
                • How will you feel when your kids don't want you around? When they are 8 or 9 years old, and you can't get a job, and all you can do is be a helicopter mom? AND you're not bringing in any $$

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                  01.29.09, 12:03 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • it is "easier" yes to be a sahm then a wohm--that isn't to say it is "easy". Because most times you have to manage the home and children and development and education and child care AND then work outside of the home--

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            01.29.09, 12:08 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • No way do I consider it the easy life. I look forward to going to work on Mondays so I can get a chance to sit.

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          01.29.09, 10:38 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • You are me too! I'm secretly hoping to get laid off, but somehow I've survived all of the rounds. MBA in big finance job. I'm even hiding the fact that I'm pregnant because I don't want to be lumped into a "protected class"!

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      01.29.09, 09:11 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • you shouldn't feel guilt over this. i don't know why we think that our goals at 20 or 25yo (when you were choosing a profession and before marriage and kids) are more important than your desires/goals/ideals now. instead of feeling guilty, you should do some hard thinking about what your goals are (long term and short term), what your financial needs and wants are, and what your dh's goals and financial needs/wants are. You also need to separate issues. instead of worrying that you will "disappoint your peers" (who cares?) and that you're turning into a "wannabe '50s housewife", why don't you focus instead on what's important to you instead of whether you are falling into a stereotype. signed, total stereotype who did it by choice and...

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      01.29.09, 09:12 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i am you, but with less $. Dh's promotion was eliminated from budget cuts and here I am, at the office :-( If I could I would go part time too.

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      01.29.09, 09:12 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I loved reading your post. I am in the same boat and struggling with the decision...how could I have turned into my mother who was a SAHM. But I don't have the fire anymore to keep my job. Really tough.

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      01.29.09, 09:17 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Wow, this obviously hits home for a lot of us here, & I'm one of them. I'm a doctor & ironically I have a 3 y.o. & I'm due early summer w/my 2nd. I always was competitive, had a lot of drive/ambition & then I had my first child & I care more about being a mommy than climbing up the professional ladder. But I'm 42 y.o... I don't know how old you are but I don't feel that guilty about it & somehow I've attributed that to my age (not sure if it's true or not). But I gave my 30's completely to building my professional self successfully, why not give my 40's to building my family. I certainly waited long enough. However, we don't have the luxury for me to completely leave work & be on one salary so I do need to work part-time. The strug...

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      01.29.09, 09:31 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am you. I am a doctor with 2 DCs who went PT when 2nd was born and have slowly become a SAHM. I am older too o/w I wouldn't have had the courage to do it. I would have felt I disappointed my peers, wasted a seat, etc. But being older I just decided life is short & I can't ruin my own life because of this. I do feel enormous guilt still & maybe I'm projecting but I think people do look disapproving many times. Still, I love my life & wouldn't change it for the world. Part of it is that there aren't many doctors who give up their careers.

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        01.29.09, 09:57 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am in th every same boat (ivy, lawyer), except only one child and DH is supportive. His support is currently only in theory, because he does not yet have a job, but I wanted to say that you are not alone, and that finding that balance will beneficial to the whole family, including your husband. I do have loans, however, so I am stuck doing this a while longer.

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      01.29.09, 09:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • ivy, lawyer, doing contract attorney work, 33-35 hrs/ week max, see my dd a lot more, work is so boring I could scream BUT see my dd a lot more! GL

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      01.29.09, 09:45 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • i totally know where you're coming from. i realized after dc1 that i was not that professionally ambitious and that while i still want to woh (and would not make a great sahm), i don't want to work as many hours and i really want to be a hands on mom and still have a minute for myself. w dc2, this has intensified. i'm lucky to have a flexible job so i'm able to take time for the kids when i want to, but now have little time for myself and it's a struggle. i do need to work financially and i do want to work, but ideally, i'd prefer to work about 20-25 hours/week - say 3 days and have 2 at home.

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      01.29.09, 09:53 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • same here..ivy educated undergraduate and graduate. i have slowly become sah and am ttc #2. i remind myself that i can always go back to work but can't go back to this age with dcs. i am a psychologist, so my field is very flexible.

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      01.29.09, 10:07 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Can you push really hard for 4 days / week or part-time work? It won't completely solve the problem, but it will help a little bit. And good luck! Remember that all of us are struggling with these issues, no one has the perfect answer and you've just got to figure out what's best for you and your family right now.

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      01.29.09, 10:09 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Can someone please tell me what was so bad about the 1950s housewives? I'm a guy and I have to tell you, I'd switch places with her in a New York minute!

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      01.29.09, 10:18 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Maybe the OP's DH feels the same way, which is likely a big part of the issue. I know a lot of working fathers that are resentful of the fact that it is most often the women that gets to decide she wants to spend more time with DC, do more things she enjoys, etc.

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        01.29.09, 10:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • exactly. lots of people, men adn women, would like to not work ful time (and not have to worry about money). but we thinkthat's natural and laudabvle in women, adn makes men into losers.

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          01.29.09, 12:12 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I get it completely. I think the hardest part is if your dh is not on board. Let go of the guilt for awhile if you can. You will both be a little overwhelmed when #2 comes along. If you feel really strongly about remaing sahm, I would suggest a family therapist so you and dh can go through it with a 3rd party. It may not be possible financially (or not in a way you can live with), but I think it's a good exercise. Come up with something you can live with--and that may mean dh taking on more childcare responsibilities, which may be something he has not considered realistically. gl

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      01.29.09, 10:21 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • NP: This is first and foremost your life. Do you want to live it how you want to and go with the ebb and flo.....maybe you will have a strong desire to return in a few years. Do you want to be part of a larger movement or do you want to live your life in the moment? Lastly, ask yourself will you be sad when your dc's are 8 or nine and spending large portions of the day away from you and with friends/sports/hobbies that you did not spend the early years, when they're pretty needy( sometimes overwhelmingly so)? BTW, now that dcs are 8 and 6 I am so oooooo ready to go back to work.

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      01.29.09, 10:25 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I had the best education I could possibly imagine, had some lucrative jobs (and some not), never really found something I loved and wanted to stick with. Am now SAHM with #2 on the way...I don't want things to be different, but constantly feel like I failed to live up to my potential, and I am less interesting than the woman dh married. Am terrified of what will happen in 18 years when the nest is empty. Who will I be?

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      01.29.09, 10:28 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Am ivy, biglaw lawyer here as well -- what ultimately worked for me was a part-time schedule, which I think that you should consider, if there your current firm would allow it. It's an ideal situation for me -- I'm around enough to cook healthy meals, take dc on playdates, etc. while also maintaining my credentials, work experience, etc...

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      01.29.09, 10:31 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • You are me except my dc's are 5 and 7. I quit practicing law full time, now work 20 hours per week and do the other things you describe - exercise, cooking, grocery shopping, volunteer work. It is great. The only thing that has been a negative is the tremendous loss of income.

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      01.29.09, 12:08 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • welcome to perspective. i think your priorities are in the right place. nothing wrong with rearing children. potentially it's the most important job you'll ever have. good luck.

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      01.29.09, 12:15 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • this is a syndrome that's becoming more and more common and is so rarely addressed. i feel like i was so inundated with information when i was pregnant, but nobody ever told me about that my ambition to be a great editor/writer would be so diminished. i feel like i checked my ambition at the door to the hospital. but, i'm working part-time now and freelancing a little on the side and i LOVE it. i feel like i'll keep one foot in the game and maybe get back to my career ambitions when my kids are older or try something else.

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      01.29.09, 12:42 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • So many women lawyers find themselves in this situation (and non-lawyers too!). For me, the answer was getting a govt job. Stable, predictable hours & paycheck; interesting work; good balance. After I had my first db, I realized that for me, there was absolutely no way to continue in a big firm as a mom and be happy. And when you have #2, it's only harder.

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      01.29.09, 01:56 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Ditto here. Stayed at the big firm until #2 was 7 months and then found a govt. job. Has worked out well, as you describe. You don't get paid that much, but then you really don't have to work all that hard either.

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        01.29.09, 05:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • This is why my MIL says "an education for a woman is a waste"

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      01.29.09, 03:40 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I'm disappointed too. You wasted someone else's slot at your Ivy. You could have attended The University of Cupcakes, if you wanted stay home. If you were a man people would tell you to suck it up....so...suck it up.

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      01.30.09, 08:55 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • TOTALLY AGREE with this - someone else could have gone in your place and actually done something for the world. DON'T BE LAZY.

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        01.30.09, 08:57 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • You're horrible.

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        01.30.09, 08:58 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • No, she's right! She says she and her DH earn roughly the same amount. Can you IMAGINE if a DH came on here saying he would rather just stop working and do more things he enjoys and he doesn't understand why his wife is "disappointed" and not 100% on board with this plan? What sort of response would he get?

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          01.30.09, 09:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • she's not wrong about sucking it up. if a man said that he realy wisehd he could stay home and be supported financially even though he has big earning potential, and his wife doens' want him to, UB would not be on his side.

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          01.30.09, 09:00 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • I'm an MBA from a Ivy-League and there are so few women in the law and business programs. Put your feelings aside. The poster is right. At what point are women going to make a change to the work culture? If they never reach the top of their fields.

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          01.30.09, 10:10 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I am surprised that so many of you seem to see a liberal arts education as some kind of technical-vocational credential for high-income jobs. Limited and sad point of view.

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        01.30.09, 09:22 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • If it was just an undergrad liberal arts degree, I would agree with you, but she went to law school, which IS enough credential for high-income jobs.

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          01.30.09, 09:33 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • I can't believe that so many people think her education is "wasted". Education isn't just about getting a high-powered job. Or at least it shouldn't be. As a former Ivy-league prof I certainly don't think she would be "wasting" her education.

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        01.30.09, 10:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • You are me, and this is not forever. Your dcs will benefit from their well-educated and thoughtful mother, and if your desires change you can revisit and re-enter. This is not a practice life, and it's up to you to make it work in the way you want.

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      01.30.09, 09:27 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Will they benefit from their overworked, resentful and exhausted father? Amazing how many women here seem to think it's only the mother's life that matters.

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        01.30.09, 09:34 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • ITA. It's about doing what's best for your family, not just for you.

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          01.30.09, 09:35 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
        • NP: OMG, this post is about a mother. Sheesh! If you want to talk about fathers, start your own thread!

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          01.30.09, 10:39 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
          • No, it's a post about a FAMILY. OP wants to stay at home, DH wants her to keep working. They have roughly the same income. It's not just what the OP wants that matters.

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            01.30.09, 10:42 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
            • It's about how the OP is trying to find some kind of balance between career and family.

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              01.30.09, 10:44 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
              • And the balance she wants isn't the one her spouse wants. You don't think that is an extremely relevant factor?

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                01.30.09, 10:46 AM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am working in a stressful job that pays very well. My dd is 4. I am totally obsessed with her. The funny part is that I don't need to work. DH is independently wealthy. I am doing it because I like it. Go figure.

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      01.30.09, 08:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
      • Your education and background will not go to waste if you change paths. They went into making you "you" - and you have options. Making it in big law means that you are tough, smart, and have some serious stamina. Watch that old 80s movie "Baby Boom" and see if you get any ideas;) Also, can you be Of Counsel and reduce your work schedule? What about teaching at one of the law school or pre-law courses at an undergrad? What about legal recruiting instead?

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        01.31.09, 07:32 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • I am not a lawyer but think you should look into a firm called Axiom. On lafayette or Spring, somewhere east and downtown. The firm makes it possible for lawyers, many are women, to work and have flexibility, instead of being on the billable hours hamster habitat treadmill. Sigh. I have 2 kids, 3yo and 7mos, work full time as an editor but never have to work late, and wish i used my ivy degree to go farther and be more successful than i am now, at age 40. but i'm loving being a mom, would love to work 4days/wk, and am starting to plot a way toward that goal in 2-3 years. Frankly, I truly feel like a 50s housewife because i am totally supporting my DH to become the best at his job so he can rescue me from mine with a big fat payday when his ...

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      01.31.09, 07:58 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
    • Sign. This is me. I made the decision to get out of the rat race about 5 years ago. Now my friends are making partners at BigLaw. I do wonder what I could have been if I made a different choice. But I am back working part time now. Maybe I will have a second chance...

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      01.31.09, 09:19 PM [ Flag | link to this post ]
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