Remember Me's gender politics "a subconscious militant act"

Remember Me's gender politics "a subconscious militant act"

Tue 16 Apr 2013 8:06am GMT / 4:06am EDT / 1:06am PDT
Development

Dontnod creative director on equality and lead character Nilin

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Dontnod's Jean-Maxime Moris has revealed the thought that went into making sure the hero of its upcoming title Remember me wasn't just a sex bomb, and how the world reflects the studio's take on gender equality.

"We didn't think of gender equality being a major theme in the game, but thinking back on the world we designed, it is true that women have key positions in its governance," the creative director told Shacknews.

"In 2013, we have a long way to go in terms of gender equality, so take this as a subconscious militant act."

"If you respect your public, then you refuse to dumb your work down"

He added that creating a rounded, strong female character was a matter of respecting in your audience, and in the long run would actually help a game stand out from its competitors.

"You have to avoid the pitfalls of making her just a damsel in distress or a sex bomb, because this is what you think would appeal most to the hordes of men that constitute your fan base," he said.

"But if you respect your public, then you refuse to dumb your work down, and eventually it pays back because what you do is different. But I'm not saying we're the only ones. I'm quite happy to see that more and more games feature female protagonists."

The words touch on a hot topic in the industry, as it struggles to be more inclusive in both the real world and the virtual. Naughty Dog recently explained how it had fought to keep its hero, Ellie, on the front of the packaging for The Last Of Us, and had to specially request female focus testers for the game.

18 Comments

Jade Law
Senior concept artist

Top Comment This is hardly a new thing though, Valve in particular are very successful with their female characters.
Its not like every female character until now has been a damsel or a personality-lacking sex doll. Male and females generally suffer from the same archetypes in games so its not even a gender issue so much as a personality diversity issue.

I got accused of making one of my characters "too sexy" because she had large breasts and there was a knockback from people about her design. As a girl with large breasts i was very irritated by this. We need to stop acting like theres a "right or wrong" situation going on here and just choose the suitable archetype for our games because for the past 5 or so years we've seen far more diversity in female characters than in males.

Equality is when theres room for damsels, sex bombs and whatever else we can throw in the pot.

Posted:3 days ago

#1

Eric Pallavicini
Community Manager

I got accused of making one of my characters "too sexy"
Was there any woman who commented like that in that case you mention ?

Edited 1 times. Last edit by Eric Pallavicini on 16th April 2013 5:15pm

Posted:3 days ago

#2

Jade Law
Senior concept artist

Actually all men who couldnt explain why they saw large breasts as an issue. Its almost as if all these gender-talks recently are bringing out white knights who argue a cause they dont understand.
I went into more detail about it on twitter.

Posted:3 days ago

#3

Eric Pallavicini
Community Manager

I am tempted to go on a Freudian explanation on Totems and Taboos, but I won't. Freud did it better than I ever will.

Anyway, I am eager to see more diversity in the future as you mentioned it for characters, and this both in physically and... hopefully psychically as well.

Posted:3 days ago

#4

Paul Johnson
CEO / Lead code monkey

Hasn't Freud been debunked on just about everything?

Posted:3 days ago

#5

I went into more detail about it on twitter.
Sorry, this made me laugh! More detail in 140 characters? Have you considered a blog to elaborate your thoughts in? :)

Posted:3 days ago

#6

Tim Ogul
Illustrator

I think this is probably the biggest obstacle towards normalizing women in games, that every time a developer chooses to have a female lead in their games these days, the media clamors to build it into some political stand. Until we can get past that, we can't reach the point where it's no more heady a decision than a coin flip.

Posted:2 days ago

#7

Jade Law
Senior concept artist

@Adrian
It was several tweets during a discussion on the topic.
I considered posting about it on my blog but never seem to find the time to eloquently write up my thoughts. Plus my opinion on gender in games and games development generally contradicts that of the typical outspoken female dev so I generally dont see the point.

Posted:2 days ago

#8

As I like to put it (and this applies to all mediums, not just games) you should create a character that just happens to be female, not a female character. The distinction is that the former has many aspects that define her, the female aspects being just one of them; the latter defines her from the start.

Posted:2 days ago

#9

Bonnie Patterson
Freelance Content Author

Part of the problem is that a great many complaints from women about female depictions in games have been passed along with certain details lost.

For example, a few years back, a very well expressed piece was put together by a woman who objected to the options she had in character creation for a female character in most games of the time. There was no choice but to be a large-breasted, pert-bottomed, long-legged pouty beauty in lingerie.

This immediately got taken as a statement that she wanted no sexy characters in games, (and that all men are bad and should put their penises in meat grinders, apparently, if you read some of the reactions at the time). But this wasn't remotely the case.

What she was asking for was for there to be a choice: for not every female character to be a sex bomb. For there to be an option sometimes to play a character that was fat, flat, short, tall, athletic, scrawny, etc. And for the chance to put on pants, or a coat. Sensible shoes.

She never asked for something to be taken away, simply for developers to be aware that many women would like to play something other the standard.

The Secret World, for example, has done very well in this regard - many of my friends have rejoiced at the inclusion of women's jeans and Velma jumpers, but there are also mini skirts, bikini tops and a very sultry Egyptian outfit. You can't change breast size or amount of body fat, but there's the scope to present your avatar as you wish to see it.

It's like those "Which is more beautiful?" memes going around showing Kate Moss being skinny, and Marilyn Monroe being curvy, proclaiming curves were better. A great many women told those posting them that they'd missed the point - that the idea was to stop telling people how their bodies should look, no matter what shape they were.

tl;dr? There should still be room for sexy portrayals of women in games, it just needs to not be the only portrayal of women in games. Or everywhere else, for that matter.

Posted:2 days ago

#10

Greg Wilcox
Creator, Destroy All Fanboys!

Dragon's Dogma has a REALLY nice character edit function (including a bunch of scalable body parts and more realistic body types for a fantasy-themed RPG). It's actually pretty awesome because you can control so much of how you look that if you wanted to play as a completely unattractive hero or heroine, you can do so.

Posted:2 days ago

#11

Eric Leisy
Graphic Designer

I have such a hard time taking the female empowerment angle for Remember Me, when it's attached to the cover art that is paraded around for the game. I'm looking forward to this game, and have been following it for a while - but I just couldn't help but FACEPALM when I saw the cover art.

Posted:2 days ago

#12

Eric Pallavicini
Community Manager

Hasn't Freud been debunked on just about everything?
Actually not, far from that. Though they are various schools in the psychology field, many of Freud's concepts are still in use in modern psychology (or more specifically in psychoanalysis). Psychology/neurosciences have many fields (psychology, psychoanalysis, psychopathology, pedagogy, psychiatry, etc.). Now while I have not studied nor read all of Freud's works the book I am referring to here is more of an anthropological study and while it is linked to Freud's core work, it is not exactly what Freud is most renown (and criticized) for.
The Secret World, for example, has done very well in this regard - many of my friends have rejoiced at the inclusion of women's jeans and Velma jumpers, but there are also mini skirts, bikini tops and a very sultry Egyptian outfit. You can't change breast size or amount of body fat, but there's the scope to present your avatar as you wish to see it.
I would like to mention, while I cannot name specifically the product for professional reasons, that I have been more or less close to a MMO where the character creation interface allowed some of the modifications you are mentioning. Actually the character creation engine was pretty much able do let you do nearly anything with your character, of course including changing the size of the breast. That was of course before the release, and all those customization options where removed because some organization which purpose is to "control and enforce the "right way of thinking"" only noticed the "enlarge your character breast feature". I am not able to provide more details (nor I have verified the information myself), but my point is that when we want to allow diversity and provide means for that, there are always some people on this earth to claim it is bad because they think that if you allow anyone to change a character's breast size, everyone will of course put the setting on maximum. Amongst other arguments, it was mentioned also that customization of lips, eyes, breast, etc. could encourage people (and especially young ones) to resort to cosmetic surgery. Although I was not given the chance to read full details, what I am trying to highlight here is again a paradox. We want more diversity, we want things to be more close to people's reality, but when we provide the means it gets turned down by the very same people who told us to provide that (well it's their jobs to think for/instead of us all, I guess).

Edited 4 times. Last edit by Eric Pallavicini on 17th April 2013 10:42am

Posted:2 days ago

#13

@ Eric
My thoughts exactly, if they're trying to take gender equality seriously in the game, the marketing team certainly isn't aware of it. The cover art and the trailer seem more concerned about her posterior than what's going on in her head and around her.

Posted:2 days ago

#14

Kevin Danaher
QA Manager

@ Jade
I just took a look at your artwork and (apart from being pretty awesome by the way) it's pretty well balanced. I see large breasted curvy women and slim athletic women. I also see men with arms of an average (gym capable) size, rather than obscenely huge linebacker on steroids sized. Which, to back up Bonnies point, always frustrates me because as a man I do like to play as a badass unstoppable space marine sometimes but it's rare to see normal male characters as an option to me in most games... I just want the option. I think regardless of gender there's a lot of stereotyping in our industry and when something comes along the doesn't follow this trend it's much more relatable.
Some example I suppose are:
The Left 4 Dead 1&2 cast of ordinary folks
David Cage's various characters
Ragnar Tornquist's various characters (the Longest Journey Definitely)
The Naughty Dog Uncharted Cast
These all allow a far greater connection with the user simply by being much more believable human beings.

Edited 1 times. Last edit by Kevin Danaher on 17th April 2013 3:58pm

Posted:2 days ago

#15

Jade Law
Senior concept artist

@Kevin Thanks
Its all down to the game of course but like i said in my first post, male characters end up using similar extreme archetypes as females. I'd like more diversity sure, but Im still not adverse to have a spectrum of extremities for characters to sit in. We need to the extremes.. and everything in between, but as an artist I could never argue one is better than the other.

We need to stop making a big hoohah about how great we think our female characters are for being "diffrent", when a lot of these characters already exist. Its perpetuating the idea there is a bigger problem with this than there is.

Posted:2 days ago

#16

Paul Johnson
CEO / Lead code monkey

Yup.

I don't care if a game has female characters with small breasts or female characters with large breasts. (Although I prefer large) The only thing that would put me off a game I'd have bought otherwise, is if it has slogans like "gender politics" attached to it. I just wanna blow shit up.

Edited 1 times. Last edit by Paul Johnson on 18th April 2013 8:19am

Posted:Yesterday

#17

Kevin Danaher
QA Manager

@Jade
Yes, 1000x this... Gender issues in games seem to be put under the microscope so often lately. More so than in any other kind of media.
I want us to be able to get to the point where we say "that's a cool character" not "that's a cool character but it's a man/woman so there are these certain implications we must place on it".
Narrow mindedness has no place in a creative industry in my opinion. The consumers may be a mixture of mindsets; broad/narrow and everything in between but as the ones creating the content we have a responsibility to broaden people's horizons, not trap them within base stereotypes.

Posted:Yesterday

#18

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