Feature
Why Zelda Still Rules the Action RPG
The Legend of Zelda games may not be perfect, but they still define the genre.
Continued (page 3 of 3)
The combat is rock-solid, even amidst all the gimmickry
You may hate the fact that modern Zelda games don't just let you hit a button to kill enemies, and that's fine. Deviating from the standards carries with it a risk of alienating fans, and the last time we saw "standard" combat in a new Zelda game was in 2004's The Minish Cap (unless you count the weird mutant GameCube version of Twilight Princess). Since then, we've waggled, we've Motion Plussed, we've swiped, we've tapped, we've aimed.
But no matter how Nintendo strays from the old-fashioned approach of jabbing B to stab Octoroks with a wooden sword, one thing remains the same: Zelda combat is great. Maybe it's not the king of the world anymore; perhaps you prefer Assassin's Creed with its fluid, reaction-based fighting. Maybe you like God of War's combo-oriented approach. In some ways, Zelda feels staid and old-fashioned even amidst its experimental interface attempts... but again, it's a case of give-and-take. The fundaments of Zelda combat have slowly evolved over time, each new game innovating in its own way. The radical new control schemes build on a solid foundation so that no matter how wild the interface mechanics, players are ultimately performing familiar actions.
Zelda battles are like great jazz: Smooth, fluid, and layering new improvisational elements atop a steady foundation. Each game goes off to explore its own variant, but in the end the piece comes back around to where it started. Whether you're roll-dodging around a Darknut to slash its armor off from behind or performing perfectly directed slashes through the openings in a Stalfos' defense, Zelda's combat works; it engages; it engrosses. And while fighting isn't the central focus of any Zelda game, it provides the climaxes -- the punctuation that spices up the adventure.
The creators aren't afraid to mix things up and make bold stylistic choices
For all that we've complained that Zelda games are too similar, too stagnant, too predictable... that's only true to a degree. Much as with the series' combat mechanics, the consistency of the Zelda games works as a stable foundation upon which the creators may feel free to experiment.
And experiment they have. Zelda games have always dabbled in the unexpected. Zelda II switched genres entirely; Link's Awakening emphasized tools; Majora's Mask changed the game structure into a series of cyclical iterations. The DS games threw out traditional controls for an accessible, all-audiences, stylus-driven interface. And who doesn't remember the collective Internet meltdown when Nintendo revealed Wind Waker's visual style? We still wake screaming from nightmares of lynch mobs chanting "CEL-DA!"
Yes, Zelda games maintain a consistent set of underlying mechanics and objectives. The overall game structure -- roaming a huge world containing tool-granting dungeons with a boss cherry on top -- hasn't changed much since 1986. But what long-running series has more radically reinvented its appearance or interface with each new iteration than Zelda? From the addictive four-player co-op style of Four Swords Adventures to Twilight Princess' ethereal Twilight Realm, every new Zelda game contains a guarantee that you'll experience something new and different. Maybe it won't always be to your liking (see: Sailing in Wind Waker, divining in Skyward Sword), but it's not like Nintendo is just sitting on its hands, you know? Every Zelda stands apart from its predecessors. And that consistent willingness to switch things up in way you never expected helps the series maintain its standing at the top of the genre. Competitors may come and go, but Zelda still rules the action RPG. (Or whatever you call it.)
See Also
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Comments (108)
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High Five Bob Mackey
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Tryptamine
so fuckin overlooked.
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Zelda is an action or adventure RPG
Posted: 03/08/2013 by talkgames
Character arch quests dungeons inventory items weapons equipment puzzles choices open world etc. It is an old game the genre has be redefined over and over, also Zelda is such a unique game that combines elements like no other single series. It has always been refered to as an adventure or action rpg.
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nope
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Zoeila
you cant rule a genre your not part of. Zelda is not on rpg! with the exception of zelda 2.
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haha
Posted: 07/18/2012 by Oneyeoninsu
RPG means Role playing game, Link , therefore is your role you are playing. zelda is an action rpg, zelda 2 was the most of rpg concidering it had an actual level system.
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TP on GC
Posted: userComment.createdDate by moonblurs
"...unless you count the weird mutant GameCube version of Twilight Princess."
Twilight Princess was originally developed for the GameCube. TP on the Wii is a port, it was delayed like a year to slap the motion controls and to have it ready for the Wii's release.
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zelda is the best no matter what
Posted: userComment.createdDate by darkrob
zelda is the best franchise ever!!! it has the best games of all time!!! i´ve played and loved every -and i mean EVERY- game that its out there and never get tired of it. i´ll probably play zelda until the day i die (something i can´t say about current gen games frequently mentioned in this comments)
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Respectfully Disagree
Posted: userComment.createdDate by CalQL8edKOS
I've long grown bored of the Zelda series. Okami was the first successful Zelda killer for me. Better art, better combat, better characters. I also consider Odin Sphere and Muramasa to be action RPGs, and Odin Sphere is probably my favorite title in the genre at the moment.
Frankly the Zelda games don't seem to have a soul anymore, and I know that's a very imprecise criticism, but when compared to any of the above games, or other adventure games like Shadow of the Colossus, Zelda just pails in comparison. Don't get me wrong, they're always solid games, and obviously the series is a ridiculously important pioneer in all of gaming, but it's my opinion that taken on their own merits, Zelda games stopped being 'great' a generation or two ago
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Great Article
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Hyun_tae
Many may not feel the same, but somehow, Skyward Sword has become one of my all time games. The way this game struck me, i dont know. But I simply fell inlove with this game and practically every way. But hey, what can we do, we all have our opinions, preferences and likes. And this has become mine.
But back on topic, I simply gotta agree with this article. Well written Jeremy!
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RPG???
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Pacmania35
I never considered Zelda as an RPG. What qulifies it as an RPG? While it does have RPG elements, it really is an adventure game. There's no leveling up, stregthening abilities, casting magic, sommoning, or epic battles. Final Fantasy is an RPG. Zelda is not. Case closed.
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You're the person Jeremy was talking about
Posted: 06/01/2012 by s1ash
To qoute him directly: "you're the sort of person who gets bent out of shape when someone describes a game without overt stats as an RPG."
What's RPG stand for? Role-Playing Game. You play a role. Math is not implied in the name of the genre, nor is casting magic. And how can you say Zelda has no epic battles?
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@s1ash
Posted: 06/05/2012 by GrayWolf323
by that defintion then Call of Duty is a shooting RPG, you're playing a role after all
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Zelda is the Beatles
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Lonecow12
It's like Zelda is the Beatles, and Elder Scrolls is like Lynard Skynard. They both have good songs, but where one is genre changing and no frills and the other makes for a good popular hit, that just crams more stuff into each song, but doesn't really push anything forward.
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Zelda's Great
Posted: userComment.createdDate by RykerSylvarant
If people just look past the expectations for each new Zelda game, they can see that they're all great! The formula may be old but it's tried and true, and still brings much enjoyment!
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YESYES give it to me baby, NO,NO, NO!
Posted: 05/13/2012 by AVGN
We have to be careful not to just praise everything in the series though. If we do the games will cease to be masterpieces. I feel where 1up and many other critics (including myself and many fans of the series) are commng from. we are very critical of the series because we want it to maintain its excellence.
Anyways Skyward Sword was a great game and it could have been the greatest. I mean 1 on 1 fighting mechanics were made for the Zelda series, and Skydiving and flying around on the loftwing was the most brilliant and novel idea since riding epona on N64, heck the artistic direction was probably the best since AlttP. However it was held back from its true potential due to poor character models (bokoblins, Ghirahim, Robot people, kikwi, dragons, BOKOBLINS) and the fact that it wasn't blended well. Being blended well or well rounded is a characteristic that EVERY zelda game that was considered a masterpiece (Alttp, ooT, etc.) has had. It was hard to find flaws in those games. The fact that they were blended very well as well as having novel ideas and revolutionary mechanics is what made those games masterpieces and SS only had 2/3 (Those bokoblins dont belong in a masterpiece, I mean really who gave that the green light?!). Even Wind Waker despite being hated for its cell-shading is hard pressed to find real flaws in how well rounded it is, the cell shading works for that game. SS however suffers from somewhat of an identity crisis. It is however a Great game I'm not denying THAT, its just that it didn't quite live up to its full potential. 9.5/10 if anything and I say that meaning it can stand up against any of the titans of this console generation. Hands down its still a top tier game. yet still thats the difference between a great game and a timeless masterpiece
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okami
Posted: userComment.createdDate by kittenkilla
is the best action rpg in my opinion.
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Hmmm?....
Posted: 05/13/2012 by AVGN
Its funny, Okami was released just before twilight princess. Both featured wolf characters. At that time I actually enjoyed Okami more than Twilight Princess maybe because I was over the whole wolf thing by te time I got my hands on TP. But as time has gone on Twilight Princess has withstood the test of time better than Okami and here today I can say I like TP better.
Okami was great at the time because it was something brand new where as TP was alot like other zelda games we no doubt had played. But now that the "brand new" has worn off I realise that TP is asctually a much better game that I actually want to play through again where as I get bored with Okami pretty quickly now.
The second thing is the sidekicks. Issun (Okami) vs Midna (Twilight Princess). Both are humorous and actually make up most of the dialogue because the protagonist is silent. This is the only aspect Okami may be superior because Issun is one funny little bugger but almost every other aspect in Twilght princess is better other than that which is why it is the better game.
Skyward Sword will endure the test of time for 2 reasons:
1) Motion controls- there is just nothing else like it so if you want that motion experience you'll be running to this game (for a good while from what I can tell @ least the next 5-10 years)
2) Skydiving- This is the most Novel thing about Skyward Sword and is superior to anything in Okami OR Twilight Princess
Skyward Sword FTW!
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The Legend of Zelda Series is an RPG.?
Posted: userComment.createdDate by JyakotuKurayami
FALSE.!!! If anything, The Legend of Zelda series is an action-adventure game. None of the games have any RPG elements. So this whole article should be taken with a grain of salt at best.
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"None of the games have any RPG elements"
Posted: 05/15/2012 by Triforce_of_the_Gods
Let's pretend for a minute that something needs stats to be an RPG. Zelda II has those.
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I'll be curious...
Posted: userComment.createdDate by curtisdhansen
...to see what happens to the number of "detractors" of Skyward Sword as time goes by. Personally, I feel positively spoiled after experiencing its comprehensive and intuitive motion controls, series-high presentation, and the hands-down best set of dungeons I have ever experienced in a videogame. There was actually a short time afterwards where I wondered if I'd be able to enjoy the previous entries in the series the same way again. I doubt I will ever fully understand the criticisms - certainly not how much they swayed certain people. Just my two cents.
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wow
Posted: userComment.createdDate by SuperSledge
reading about those dungeons makes me want to check out Zelda... a little bit. I don't know about everyone else but I just don't like Link. So I always overlook the Zelda series
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A Brief Shiver
Posted: userComment.createdDate by KazeFoxx
at the thought that anyone, anywhere would think that I--as the individual gaming reader in this context-- would prefer assassin's creed or god of war anything over Zelda. Sure I no longer own nintendo consoles (I get my nintendo gaming done through friends), but Zelda will always be the cream of the crop in my eyes. Even when your informative companions break pass the threshold of unbearable annoyance which each new installment, Zelda tends to be an exceptional experience. I learned this after playing wind waker, and being among the initial group of gamers who cried foul at the artistic 180 the game did. I also count myself amongst the gamers who, hopefully, realized how wrong we were with our inacceptance of the game. It almost replaced OOT as my favorite Zelda entry.
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Zelda Evolution
Posted: userComment.createdDate by zidan
We almost expect too much from a game in the series. "Remain faithful to what I consider the base elements!" and "Give me something fresh and original!".
I enjoy a lot of what makes Zelda games great and remain optimistic that every game changes things up in a few ways that will result in a better game every time.
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Zelda is an Action Adventure to me
Posted: userComment.createdDate by strelles
I don't completely agree with this article. I think The Legend of Zelda games do possess elements of Action-RPGs, yet they're far from defining the genre. They define the Action-Adventure genre to me.
To me, an Action-RPG has stats growth and is all about progressing with your character(s), and Action-Adventures are more about getting new weapons and sporadically updating old ones (such as swords and shields).
Anybody has more opinions on this topic?
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Not Sure...
Posted: 05/10/2012 by masterlinkace
Well I'm not entirely sure anymore, however I would class the original few games as pretty much defining what an action RPG was at the time. Sure, the genre has grown alot since then, and zelda has stayed more towards it's adventure roots, but I would still say that you could get away with calling zelda an action RPG, even today. I personally would agree with you and call it an action adventure game, but if you take the whole series into account, it still has alot in common with your typical action RPG.
Either way, I think that zelda is on top of whatever genre it happens to fall under :P
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Zelda is good but...
Posted: userComment.createdDate by masterchiefLopez
Dark Souls = the mature version of Zelda we all wanted Nintendo to make.
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Zelda is good but...
Posted: 05/10/2012 by ForteII
Nintendo would have never made a game like Dark Souls. That game is never really easy and doesn't hold your hand - which is now, in fact, a staple of Nintendo products (e.g Super guide) .
That said, I love me some Zelda but... Dark Souls trumps over any of those, anyway.
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Pick a Side of the Fence, 1UP
Posted: userComment.createdDate by vinci
One day you're posting about how Zelda has lost its way, the next you're claiming that the series is still the foundation of action RPGs.
Is anyone else sick of the blatant bullpoop that 1UP is crapping out lately?
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They explained themselves, it makes sense
Posted: 05/11/2012 by AVGN
They were a bit dissapointed as many people were who were expecting a more HD type of game. like they said in the articele they were critisizing out of love for the series as all of us fans were
However its impossible to stay mad at the series too long and as with every other zelda game we seem to appreciate it more and more as time goes on.
PLUS now that SS is out the way we can move on to HD zelda so hope is restored ;)
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Different Editors, Different Views
Posted: 05/11/2012 by spaceworm
I've been coming to 1UP since '06 and I've learned that one reviewer's score of a game doesn't mean every 1UP employee agrees. Sure they'll respect that reviewer's score and support he/she's article, but this article is kinda proof of my point. Jose Otero reviewed Skyward Sword, Bob Mackey wrote the Zelda 'improvements' piece, and Jeremy wrote this one.
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Glad To See This Article.
Posted: userComment.createdDate by MikkiSaturn
I'm glad to see this article. Lately there have been too many articles complaining about Zelda, often times with flawed premises and cherry picked examples that ignore contradictory facts. Point is, Zelda is still the greatest (I mean most consistently excellent) franchise in gaming. That's not to say that the games are without flaws, but what other franchise has produced 9 excellent entries? Zelda is so excellent that even the clones wind up being excellent, like Okami and Alundra (Alundra in particular is a favorite of mine, check it out if you don't know). Furthermore, all kinds of games would benefit (and are benefitting) from copying some of Zelda's ideas. The problem Zelda has is that it was so good in the first place that it had little room for real improvement. That's why the games only change at the margins.
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Zelda Still (octo) "Rocks"
Posted: userComment.createdDate by AVGN
Points for writing this article! 1Up knows whats up.
Zelda is still Awesome And knowing we have an HD version coming in the future on WiiU will satisfy fans who have been waiting a long time for it.
Bokoblins single handedly killed Skyward Swords. You cant take a game seriously with that enemy in it, kept it from greatnes but other than that it was a great Traditional Zelda game which gave a nod to almost every past iteration. Best Motion Controlled game on the Market Hands Down.
I still love the franchise as much as I did day1 and HD Zelda HAS to be good. Cant wait
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Skyward Sword
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Franchise2
I'm in the middle of playing The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and I'm digging it. Still gotta finish the DS games though.
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These comments are hilarious
Posted: userComment.createdDate by bullet656
I've been pretty much a proud geek (nerd, whatever) my whole life and I often wonder why some obvious geeks go out of their way to avoid the label. Then I read comments on articles like this, where people throw hissy fits b/c somebody classified a video game a certain way (and even went out of his way to show that whatever you want to call it, zelda-like games is what he was talking about).
Anyways, nice article. I mostly agree. I've been a huge zelda fan since the beginning and still play and enjoy every new entry. However, Skyward Sword started to bore me long before it ended. Not saying it was a bad game and if it had been shorter (or even if every time I opened a chest I didn't have to waste a few second telling me a picked up a ruby) I probably would have liked it even more.
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Weird Mutant version?
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Begaria
"unless you count the weird mutant GameCube version of Twilight Princess"
You mean the version that was developed first, the game being developed with the Gamecube in mind, but then was delayed by an entire year so Nintendo could shoe horn waggle motions in just so they could claim that the Wii launched with a Zelda game? The version that shows Link as a lefty (as he should be), and the version that looks practically identical to the Wii version because the Wii version is a PORT OF THE GOD DAMN GAMECUBE VERSION?
Also, practically everyone in the gaming industry classify the Zelda series as "Action Adventure". The only game in the entire series that could be even close to being called is Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link which does have a traditional progression system akin to RPGs. So yeah, I guess you could call me one of those people who "get bent out of shape" correcting people on the correct genre Zelda is in.
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asdfljk
Posted: userComment.createdDate by JHoge04
"weird mutant GameCube version of Twilight Princess." - You mean, the ACTUAL version of Twilight Princess? Y'know, the real one, from which the Wii version spawned at the last minute? What I mean to say is, the better version.
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We all know...
Posted: 05/09/2012 by JustThatGuyBen
That that is the stupidest thing eve. The wii version, although not the oiginal, was the better version in every aspect. It was in widescreen, the pointer controls were excellent and it was the first one out of the gate.
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Wii all know...
Posted: 05/09/2012 by JustThatGuyBen
That is a lie. The wii version was better in every way. The game ran in widescreen, the pointer controls worked amazingly, and it launched one of the best nintendo consoles.
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Nope!
Posted: 05/09/2012 by Ai841-Deku
I agree with the first guy, the GCN version was the original version. Of course the Wii version is going to have a few perks, it was for the newer console after all, but that doesn't change the fact that Twilight was envisioned from the beginning to have traditional controls, and that the Wiimote controls were tacked on at the end. And while I'll admit that the bow and arrow controls and fishing controls were better, straight swordplay was just a straight remapping from perfect, tight button control to waggle. Remember, Twilight wasn't Skyward, the combat never focused on directional control, mostly because the original Wiimote, before the motion plus, was wholly incapable of that sort of thing.
As for it being first: that was a marketing gimmick to sell the Wii. You can be damn sure that the GCN version would've had the potential to be released way, way earlier than it was, and the Wii version delayed its release simply to help sell a console that was otherwise launching with no decent hardcore games, whatsoever. So the Wii version was a parasite, really.
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nostalgia
Posted: userComment.createdDate by McBeesj
since link to the past I have not been able to play a Zelda game without falling asleep and I have played 130 hours of Skyrim, beat Oblivion and glitched out of Morrowwind, beat 3 FF games and Chrono Trigger
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hmmm
Posted: userComment.createdDate by V4Viewtiful
Nintendo should bring back the leveling up sytem from Zelda 2 and Skyward Sword, the masks of Majora's mask and put it in one game.
They can call it Majora's Mask II
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Zelda is not an RPG.
Posted: userComment.createdDate by roguefrog
Zelda was never an RPG. Not even a little bit. The people early on that insisted it was an RPG were ignorant and wrong. This myth is just repeated through the generations. It's sad to still see it prepatrated by game journos that should know better. RPGs require a measure of character skill and progression, opposed to player Skill. Zelda has none. Zero. Zip. Life and Magic meter increases are standard video game conventions. Not RPG conventions. Combat in Zelda is 100% player skill with no input from character skill whatsoever. Puzzles are pure adventure. Everything else is non-unqiue to RPGs. Shops, currency, dungeons. They an RPG do not make! Second, RPGs, and when I say this I mean modern RPGs established by Fallout in the late '90s, require a level of user input on your characters choices that establishes him in the world. The actually "role-playing" part. Zelda has none of this. There are only faux choices like yes/no questions where your forced to always choose yes anyway.
I'd call Zelda Action Adventure but it still exists in a space the defies easy classification.
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You are a twat
Posted: 05/09/2012 by The_Raikage
It CAN"T be an RPG because you said so yet it can be hard to classify though you classified it? hmmmm....it has action elements, adventure elements, RPG elements, music elements, puzzle elements...catch my drift. Observe both sides of the spectrum first instead of running in head on as an idiot
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Ad hominem much?
Posted: 05/09/2012 by roguefrog
I've clearly explained why Zelda isn't an RPG. It doesn't have any RPG elements. Dungeons, towns, an economy, despite being common in RPGs, should not be considered RPG elements. Strategy games have economies too. Pikmin 2 has dungeons. Neither are RPGs. Most glaring in any Zelda game, is the character does not survive and progress in the world based on any amount of character skill. It's 100% player skill. The concept of character skill is fundamental to the genre. You shouldn't classify something it isn't. So labling Zelda as an RPG is misleading. If you still believe it's an RPG, you've only been mislead. Play more games.
As far as classifying what Zelda is...Action Adventure is apt. The problem is it's also vague. People gravitate to more familiar lables even if they aren't entirely accurate. Suffice is to say, Zelda is kind of it's own unique thing, which I only see as a good thing. Games that defy easy genre classification are usually more interesting.
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Pointless argument
Posted: 08/04/2012 by Dipman
Did you even read the article? Particularly this part from the beginning:
"...the simple fact is that Zelda still rules the action-RPG genre... or whatever genre you want to call it, if you're the sort of person who gets bent out of shape when someone describes a game without overt stats as an RPG. That genre where you go on a huge, story-driven adventure equipped with a full arsenal of weapons and gear, exploring dungeons and fighting bosses and performing mundane tasks for idiot villagers in order to procure all manner of extra tools and perks."Even if you did read it, any attempt to "educate" us on why it isn't an RPG series is just plain petty considering the author already made that very point. We know its genre is nebulous, there's no point in harping on it.
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Zelda is not an RPG game
Posted: userComment.createdDate by symbolkid88
I hate to break it to you, but the Zelda games are not role playing games at all. A role playing game is about character development like gaining experiance points and leveling up. There is no character development in any zelda game. Link does not level up at all. Sure, he gets stronger by collecting the weapons and equipment. In a game like Final Fantasy, the overall level of the character defines the strength alot more than any equipment.
Another part where Zelda drops the ball as an RPG game is in story telling. Most RPG stories are complex with lots of twists and turns while action games are more straight to the point. Take something like Xenoblade Chronicles with the explanation of the world that they live on. And then there is Zelda Ocarina of Time with Link savine the world from evil by breaking evil's grip on the world peice by piece.
Also, the two game genres differ with treasure hunting. While Zelda games are littered with treasure chests waiting to discovered, Xenoblade Chronicles has corpse looting along with tooting treasure chests. While most treasure in Zelda games are recovery items like heart pieces and ammo like bombs with rare items being actual weapons, most treasure in most RPG games are money, sellable items, weapons, and sometimes collectables.
Like I said, Zelda is not an RPG game. It an action adventure game with an open ended world. No leveling up, a straight forward story, no corpse looting. Think about it.
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Origin of the Action RPG Genre and what it actually is
Posted: userComment.createdDate by pr2kill
Dragon Slayer (1984) in the NEC PC-88 was actually the first action rpg game. Pretty much everything that the first Zelda incorporated was done by this game except for the new things Zelda created including more advance technology and graphics.
In this game you could actually level up and have full control of your character, hence why this is an action RPG. What people refer to as an Adventure-RPG is merely the formula from Dragon Slayer minus leveling up. Why people call it an
adventure-rpg is because people choose to reclassify what has already existed for no reason. If anything, the Legend of Zelda is an adventure game using elements from the earlier action rpg genres.
I forgot to mention that this game was actually published by square.
Go to youtube and search for dragonslayer
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True Origin of the Action RPG Genre
Posted: userComment.createdDate by pr2kill
Dragon Slayer in the NEC PC-88 was actually the first action rpg game. Pretty much everything that the first Zelda incorporated was done by this game except for the new things Zelda created including more advance technology and graphics.
In this game you could actually level up and have full control of your character, hence why this is an action RPG. What people refer to as an Adventure-RPG is merely the formula from Dragon Slayer minus leveling up. Why people call it an
adventure-rpg is because people choose to reclassify what has already existed for no reason. If anything, the Legend of Zelda is an adventure game using elements from the earlier action rpg genres.
I forgot to mention that this game was actually published by square.
[media=youtube]Aq9-xp8yc80[/media]
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Standard Tools
Posted: userComment.createdDate by gutsdozier
I've never understood why we pick on Zelda for re-using the same tools. No one plays Mario and says "Again with the fire flowers? When is this plumber going to learn some new moves?"
Zelda games at least occasionally use a new tool, like the leaf or the gust jar.
It might be neat to see Link used in a new genre (like Mario's paper outings) but that shouldn't be held against those games that use the established "Zelda formula."
Phrases like "genre fatigue" and "not innovative enough" need to disappear from our critical lexicon. We have no problem saying that Mega Man 2 is a superior game to Mega Man, even though it is objectively less innovative. We have a strong sense of gaming history, but we sometimes need to cast it aside. We can't compare the merits of a new game versus a similar game that has given us twenty years of joy; it's almost impossible to objectively look at them both with the same set of eyes
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damn nintendo
Posted: userComment.createdDate by blanebishop
change up you should be able to play as zelda herself and free link from gannon something not the norm
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That's all fine...
Posted: userComment.createdDate by MattheJ1
Now you just need an article explaining why you give Call of Duty disproportionately high reviews. (Spoiler: Money)
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yup
Posted: 05/09/2012 by Hydrogen_x_Pi
Parish will just offer the standard co-out, that you're comapring apples to oranges.
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thanks, jeremy
Posted: userComment.createdDate by sunmofo
well said. i've always known that you guys still love zelda, but if one were to only judge based on the past few months of articles, it would appear to be otherwise. hopefully now you'll have something to point to in the future to prove that you all still care about the series.
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While I like Zelda
Posted: userComment.createdDate by SacrificAbominat
I'm mostly finding myself looking for different Action RPG experiences these days. My biggest problem with Zelda is that while each game is unique in it's own way most of the titles feel exactly the same as the titles that came before them, which makes the series feel rather stale with each new entry. Skyward Sword felt original at first, but by the time I finished it I felt as if I played yet another more advanced clone of Ocarina of Time.
A great alternative to Zelda is the Ys series. The Ys series is about as old as Zelda, and some of the games actually play a lot like Zelda. There is a difference though between the two, and that is their focus. Zelda is usually more focused on dungeon complexity and puzzle challenges while Ys is all about skill. I actually consider the Ys series slightly better than Zelda because of its focus on skill and significantly higher difficulty level. Yeah the puzzles and dungeons are fun, but after playing every Zelda game except the CD-i Zeldas I feel as if a lot of dungeons overuse recycled elements. Ys is also a speedrun series, like Metroid is, and the satisfaction of beating Ys the Oath in Felghana on nightmare mode while trying to improve my time through each playthrough is much greater than the satisfaction I feel when playing any of the Zelda titles.
Some other games like Darksiders, Nier, and the Soul's series could be considered better games for their unique spin to the Action RPG genre, but Zelda will always be considered a classic even if it is falling behind the newer IPs.
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Zelda's not on top anymore
Posted: userComment.createdDate by wyansas
I'm like Parish in that all of my Zelda "hate" is a result of my longstanding love for the series. But I feel like the series is losing its relevance. I'd place the Souls, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, and Grand Theft Auto series all ahead of Zelda nowadays. And those are just the ones that come to mind. Aside from the controls, which were great and with which I never had any technical problems, Skyward Sword felt like a game made in 2006. It's hard to explain what I mean, but the game felt tired. Here's where I contradict myself: I still greatly enjoyed Skyward Sword. The Zelda formula makes good video games, period. But it seems like all the excitement in the Action RPG/Adventure genre is happening outside of Hyrule nowadays.
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See this is the type of opinion that drives me crazy
Posted: 05/15/2012 by Lonecow12
And I understand it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But none of those games you've mentioned are MORE FUN than a Zelda game. They have a lot more stuff and a lot more things to micromanage but that does not a fun game make.
People forego "fun" these days for "more stuff".
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Agree and Disagree
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Pacario
I totally agree with Mr. Parish about Zelda's dungeons--these are the main reasons I still play Zelda games. Everything else is really just fluff; if only Nintendo would offer a dungeon-only mode to busy gamers like me who just want to focus on the climactic, perplexing experiences these areas provide.
Conversely, while I believe the series is still relevant, I'm not sure Zelda truly defines the genre anymore, whether it be considered action-RPG or action-adventure. I think that distinction now belongs more to Skyrim, Dark Souls, and probably the upcoming Diablo 3.
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Honorable Mention
Posted: userComment.createdDate by kingsharkboi
For spirit tracks, I found the dungeons freaking genius. Idk about the overworld design (my least fav in a while) but the dungeons....man they were great. Also why are the desert/sand areas and temples almost always the best in Zelda games? Gerudo Valley and the Spirit Temple, Stone Tower, Arbiter's grounds, Lanayru Desert, Sand temple place in spirit tracks, Everything except the bigass worm boss in Lttp....etc.
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This is harsh. Evaluate me.
Posted: userComment.createdDate by ZeroBeat
Demons/Dark Souls make the last few Zeldas look like Zynga games. I love the Zelda series but they have clearly been bested this gen.
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Yes.
Posted: 05/08/2012 by Chi_the_Boss
I agree... Demon Souls and Dark Souls are some of the most underrated games out there. I mean both of those games typically get 8.0 ratings while Skysword Zelda got 10 on IGN? I smell some BS.
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Monster Hunter is better
Posted: 05/08/2012 by imercenary
And Monster Hunter bests Demons/Dark Souls.
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Great Series.
Posted: 05/08/2012 by king_mob
I spent a total of about 600 hours on the two Soulls game. I know people who spent 2,000 hours on Demon's Souls, alone. Those games are truly immersive experiences for the dedicated. From Software has implied that a Dark Souls sequel is in the works. I look forward to being part of this tradition for a long time.
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I love the Zelda games
Posted: userComment.createdDate by smmac41
although I didn't rate Skyward Sword as highly as the rest.
However, as much as I look forward to the next Zelda installment I don't think any Zelda game is the best Action Rpg.
Matrix Software took everything they learnt from the brilliant Landstalker and the even better Zelda: Link To The Past and molded the greatest Action RPG...
ALUNDRA
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they also
Posted: 05/09/2012 by Dub_Z
applied some of what they learned on Dark Savior for the Saturn. i wouldn't rank Alundra higher than A Link to the Past, but it's definitely in the top 5 for Action-RPG's despite some of it's minor flaws.
if you really love that type of game, i urge you to find a Sega Saturn and buy Legend of Oasis for it off ebay. not to be confused with it's more forgettable predeccesor: Beyond Oasis. Legend of Oasis is absolute zen for the original Zelda formula. it's a beautiful top-down 2D action rpg with brilliant controls, gameplay, spirit system, combat, weapon system, and dungeon/overworld/puzzle design... it did so much in the confines of the subgenre. my second favorite game ever behind Symphony of the Night, and I say it's to Zelda what Metal Slug is to Contra.
what i wouldn't give to see it emulated... but i doubt the code even exists. Treasure had a hardcore enough fan following to get Guardian Heroes remade for 360... but Legend of Oasis never had the stature and notoriety it deserved.
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So Glad to See Another Alundra Fan
Posted: 05/10/2012 by MikkiSaturn
I LOVE Alundra. Easily one of my top ten games and the only Zelda clone I know of to arguably be better than an actual Zelda game. I true sequel would be very very welcome...
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Story of Thor 2
Posted: 05/10/2012 by smmac41
aka Legend of Oasis, is a great game. Can't say a single bad thing about it. I bought it when it first came out and I still play that copy to this day.
I am also very glad to see another Alundra fan. Despite the fact that it is perfect in every way, it seems to have been forgotten. It doesn't help when Matrix Software hasn't made a great game since Alundra. Not counting the flashy Squaresoft/Enix remakes on the Nintendo DS.
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Thanks for the compliment
Posted: 05/11/2012 by smmac41
Dub_Z
Oh and Story of Thor 2 was by Ancient not Treasure.
Ancient was founded by Yuzo Koshiro, the guy who composed the excellent music for the Streets of Rage series.
Treasure are great though. Responsible for classics like
Gunstar Heroes
Guardian Heroes
And some pretty decent shmup's, especially Gradius V.
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yeah i know @ Ancient
Posted: 05/12/2012 by Dub_Z
i just meant by comparison Treasure's games, even the obscure saturn ones, are more widely recognized as cult classics and have a huge following... so that's why it's possible to see those resurrected or painstakingly emulated, but no one cares about Legend of Oasis/Thor, bcuz everyone sucks.
...and yeah, action-rpg is my favorite genre. love all the games you mentioned... i wish it was a more widely recognized and understood subgenre, so that competition was more fierce. zelda is like jesus to gamers though, so even if they see something comparable to it they'll just burn it for being a witch :P
theory: Ico borrowed so much from the action-rpg, zeldastyle genre and is connected via missing links like OoT and Soul Reaver on PS1 imo. it lacked as much interconnectivity and revisitation, since it was streamlined into a more cinematic flow, with cut off points-o-fno-return, as it drew influence from cinematic, puzzle-platformers like Another World, Flashback, Heart of Darkness, Abe's Oddysee/Exodduss etc
since the original Prince of Persia was a progenitor of that type of platformers, it's only natural that it would have felt a lot like Ico did when Sands of Time released as well. imo, God of War borrowed from what Ico pioneered, that PoP: SoT popularized into a more lead-character driven, action-oriented package... and then combined it with Devil May Cry's evolved beat-em-up approach. Zelda has fathered a lot of styles, but very few stay rigidly inside the formula's fence the way the traditional "action-rpg" does in games like Alundra & Legend of Oasis.
conversely, if you compare Shadow of the Colossus to the original NES Zelda, you'll find a vast, dying landscape for an overworld that intertwines in any way it can... your zelda is waiting for you at the start ala Zelda II. rather than aquiring tools, you already have all you need. replace heart pieces with lizards. remove distractions like filler enemies, throw in a horse for traversal like OoT, and change the far-away, elusive dungeon entrances waiting to perplex and challenge you... with walking puzzle-platformer bosses (an amalgamation of dungeon and boss) and you've got something that beautifully captures the oblique and obtuse essence of exploration, adventuring, and heroship in the original NES Zelda.
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The Legend of Zelda
Posted: userComment.createdDate by jgusw
I don't even think of most of the games as rpgs. They're more like action/adventure. But, whatever.
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You're Right,. . .
Posted: 05/08/2012 by Pacario
...but it's a technicality, really. Without experience points, a leveling system, or even a significant supply of armor/weapons/move sets to choose from, it's true that Zelda doesn't quite fit the definition of the genre despite often being classified as such.
But Mr. Parish himself writes: "...Zelda still rules the action-RPG genre... or whatever genre you want to call it, if you're the sort of person who gets bent out of shape when someone describes a game without overt stats as an RPG."
And Zelda II, with its "random" battles and leveling system, probably does qualify.
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It can be an RPG or and Action adventure game depending on how you look at it.
Posted: 05/09/2012 by SacrificAbominat
Most Zelda games have RPG elements in them, but the games don't feel like most Action RPGs. The Zelda series is on the thin line that separates both genres and it is debatable whether or not a game from the series falls into one genre or the other.
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action rpgs?
Posted: 05/09/2012 by Gmegaman3504
I had a guy told me all video games are rpgs even mario i tried to explain to him what a rpg is and he wouldn't hear it for you people who think mario and games like it are rpgs your wrong in my opinion what makes a rpg first off is a leveling system does mario have one no does mario give you equipable items with stats no so quit calling mario and other games rpgs!
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Zelda = Good < Great
Posted: userComment.createdDate by king_mob
I'm all about From Software's "unofficial" Souls series. Those are the games Nintendo would have made if they were still producing games for the truly hardcore.
I liked Skyward Sword but it was too padded, with clumsy sword controls that are a pain in the ass, especially when you can't get your jabbing on during a boss fight. I loved Wind Waker but Zelda has devolved into too many item collection scenarios that exist only as filler in the game. Until they overcome these design flaws the series will never been great again. I'd still rate it a B+, though. I love the sword mechanic (when it's working right).
Right now, I'm replaying Gannon's Tower from 'A Link to the Past'. It's nice to be playing a Zelda level that's actually challenging. Personally, I wish they'd go back to the whole top-down perspective in their first Wii U outing. What Sometimes you have to go backwards to move forward. Although I'd love to see a full on 3D retelling of "A Link to the Past."Before humanoid incarnation of Gannondorf was introduced in Ocarina, I had this dream that I was playing a 3D Zelda game. I was standing on Death Mountain, looking down at that glowing orange pyramid, in the distance. I could see a dark figure riding towards the pyramid on a horse and I knew it was Gannon. I've always wanted to see that moment in an actual Zelda game.
Just the same, Zelda has become a much more slow paced affair since it went 3D in 1998. It's much more of a chore to move Link around in the new games. The SNES game has a lot more flow. It's about a twenty hour game but Skyward Sword took more than 40. A lot of that time was spent on mundane tasks like waiting while Link goes through the clunky animation of climbing a step, trying to pointin Link in the right direction to get the camera behind him or recallibrating motion controls. The next game needs to make Link much more limber and quick to most past obstacles. When Link climbs up a wall, he doesn't need to grab the bottom of it with his hands, grunt as he pushes himself up, then lift his leg and push himself to the surface. They need to start making those animations go by much faster. The games have gotten too realistic and need to take a step back towards their arcade influences. Again, sometimes backwards is forwards.
Remember how 'A Link to the Past' had you fighting knights within the first five minutes of the game? I want Nintendo to give us a return to that. I'm sick of 90 minutes of fetch quests filling the opening chapter every Zelda game. I want the next game open with Link in his uncle's cabin on a dark & stormy night ('scuze the cliche). He discovers a note to his uncle saying he's gone to rescue the princess, who's being held in the castle. You head out into the rain and find a secret passage into the castle. You find your injured, dying uncle who gives you his sword. Four minutes and thirty seconds, into the game, your fighting Ganon's undead knights in the basement. Later on, you'll get to see that giant pyramid in the distance, while standing on Death Mountain. Yep, that's the game I want to play.
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I Pretty Much Agree
Posted: 05/10/2012 by MikkiSaturn
I would love another 2D Zelda, and I also agree that alot of the littel animations and things take too long. However, I guess I'm in the minority here, but I don't think the intro sections are that bad. They're nice little prologues to the main event, and they help set the tone of the game. Although the opening you propose does sound awesome.
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Duke Nukem Forever Was an RPG
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Mr.LametoWatch
Real Piece of Garbage
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since windwaker
Posted: userComment.createdDate by jellybeanmaster
the console zelda games have been falling off. especially skyward sword. i actually found the game too long. yes i found a ZELDA GAME too long. thats not a good thing
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I have to agree somewhat.
Posted: 05/08/2012 by Alpha_Nerd
Though for me it wasn't expressly the length but the fact that it seemed like every task was overly complicated. For example, just after finishing the first three main areas and returning to skyloft, I was told I needed to go mess with two windmills, this was fine as it seemed like a standard quest, but low and behold one of the fans was missing. I was then tasked with seeing a shop about borrowing a robot to seek out the missing fan blade, but the robot is also missing something critical to function. It just felt as if stuff was being tacked on to artificially lengthen things. It was as if nintendo was saying, hey Zelda is all you are getting for a while so lets make sure it lasts.
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I want my Majora's Mask 2
Posted: userComment.createdDate by V4Viewtiful
Why can't I have a Majora's Mask 2?
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Trilogy
Posted: 05/08/2012 by king_mob
I always thought that Majora'a Mask was part of a trilogy and that we never really got the third game in that particular Zelda era. It's been years but I remember Ocarina implied that adult Link still had some kind of heroic destiny to be fulfilled in a future game. I was disappointed that 'Twilight Princess' was set in another era rather than being a return to the world of Ocarina. Majora's Mask was the middle chapter of Ocarina Link's saga but hopefully we'll someday to return to that world.
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YES!!!
Posted: 05/09/2012 by yummyjibblybits
I totally agree. They should work on a final game to finish of the era. I still go back and play my special edition disc with Ocarina and Majoras mask on the GC...maybe its nostalgia but they just seem to be games I can play countless times!!
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Wherever Zelda decides to tred....
Posted: userComment.createdDate by GenesisDoes
As long as it offers some kind of CHOICE in how I control the game, I'm all for it.
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I call it action-adventure
Posted: userComment.createdDate by Machocruz
A RPG is a completely different beast, for numerous reasons, stats or no stats. And if anything, Bethesda games are the action RPGs getting the lion's share of the praise and hype these days. But LoZ does take some superficial elements from the RPG genre and combines them with arcade action to create something timeless and compelling.
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Hmm...
Posted: 05/08/2012 by McBiggitty
I get the feeling you just read the headline before immediately scrolling down to the comment section. The rest of the article has all sorts of interesting words, sentences, and paragraphs!
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I pretty much just read the title...
Posted: 05/08/2012 by GenesisDoes
Honnestly, I doubt anything else can be said about the state of Zelda games, at least not on 1up. At this point, it's kind of like beating a dead horse....Which now that I've typed it, is a horrible saying. :/
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Well...
Posted: 05/08/2012 by McBiggitty
The article is about Zelda, not about the semantics behind similar gaming genres. Not only is it a fairly minor detail, but it's one that Jeremy addresses in the text by saying, "...the simple fact is that Zelda still rules the action-RPG genre... or whatever genre you want to call it, if you're the sort of person who gets bent out of shape when someone describes a game without overt stats as an RPG."
And yes, I do like seeing my words on the screen. I've even considered making a career out of it.
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You commented eight minutes after it posted.
Posted: 05/08/2012 by sokpupet
If you're a speed reader then all apologies, but I sincerely doubt you read the whole thing and made your comment that quickly.
And the only reasons you gave is that 'RPG's are different for numerous reasons, stats or no stats' and it takes 'some superficial elements from the RPG genre...' You're being pretty vague yourself, mister.
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Easy
Posted: 05/08/2012 by Machocruz
1. Zelda, even if RPGs aren't defined by stats, doesn't have any other substantial elements that define an RPG imo, so I find that a curious statement. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
2. I disagree that Zelda rules the action RPG, even if I considered it one. Not in its latest incarnation. Bethesda games now seem to receive the highest critical praise, buzz, gamer mindshare, and possibly sales. That's just my opinion, the article makes the case otherwise
The rest of the article I have no contention with, besides the dungeons not being at all challenging, so nothing there to inspire me to comment.
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