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even for same salary , we spend twice the time in office, we don't complain about no saturday off. and we are 4 times motivated. i don't think outcome is cheap.
Something along the lines of amassing enough skills and experience to not have to do this sh&t; no more, maybe.
PS not my downvote...
PS not my downvote...
Have we already passed the tipping point I wonder? I've not seen any, British, 20 something year old programmers on a client site in the last 5 years. Companies are not altruistic. They will not grow the next generation of workers for their competitors. Mind you they will try to poach the best of the deminishing pool of talent from each other, so good news for those of us already far enough up the ladder.
Dyalect's comment reminded me of the quote often attributed to John Ruskin.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
In a dash to the lowest cost model, which incidentally isn't truly "low cost" due to the extra management overheads and the build up of technical debt; we've ended up with truly awful IT systems in some of our largest organisations. Unless something is done quickly to prevent parasitic practices in the IT industry, UK IT will go the same way as cotton, wool, electronics and car manufacturing.
"There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey."
In a dash to the lowest cost model, which incidentally isn't truly "low cost" due to the extra management overheads and the build up of technical debt; we've ended up with truly awful IT systems in some of our largest organisations. Unless something is done quickly to prevent parasitic practices in the IT industry, UK IT will go the same way as cotton, wool, electronics and car manufacturing.
And I've already copied your quote from Ruskin to my "file of cool quotes". As a side note though, Britain's car manufacturing is a bit misunderstood. As you know every kid and his dad has had a backyard car they have designed and generally failed to bring to mainstream markets. There have been tens of thousands of car companies started in UK garages, while they still exist, the hope just isn't there for them anymore.
On the other hand, when you look at major manufacturer's, Ford UK has engineered some of the best vehicles on the market for decades. They've been engineering and building in the UK for over 100 years now, VERY successfully too. I know there were closures and layoffs, but that was across the board for all major companies. When a small firm lays off 5 people because they have hit hard times, it's not news. When Ford lays off 1000 people for the same reason, the market has collapsed and is news worthy. However I think it comes down to size and scale, the two companies are still reacting the same way.
The UK car industry is actually very strong again, Ford has FINALLY started bring UK engineering and build quality into North American cars, though at premium prices, but then again you get what you pay for and now we have well made European engineered vehicles in Canada again.
On the other hand, when you look at major manufacturer's, Ford UK has engineered some of the best vehicles on the market for decades. They've been engineering and building in the UK for over 100 years now, VERY successfully too. I know there were closures and layoffs, but that was across the board for all major companies. When a small firm lays off 5 people because they have hit hard times, it's not news. When Ford lays off 1000 people for the same reason, the market has collapsed and is news worthy. However I think it comes down to size and scale, the two companies are still reacting the same way.
The UK car industry is actually very strong again, Ford has FINALLY started bring UK engineering and build quality into North American cars, though at premium prices, but then again you get what you pay for and now we have well made European engineered vehicles in Canada again.
I'm glad to see the article. It should come as no surprise that in all aspects of business, having cost savings as the first qualifier results in lower quality performance across the board in every industry. As a freelancer, I've see companies who want jobs done on the wrong parameters and will hire the provider who will deliver for far less than the lowest hourly minimum in the "west". Ive started looking for work and often confront off shore screeners and robots that qualify on irrelevant issues or factors, Its not surprising positions go unfilled. Running business on a formula that doesn't include human capital coupled with an education void is destroying economies.
If you look at the tasks performed by entry level staff from your first reference point 2001 changing back up tapes, checking log files, updating anti virus, building PC's and Laptops and first line support of a workforce where IT skills were at best patchy and hardware and software were less reliable.
A dozen years down the line back up tapes are largely gone, log analysis aggregation and reporting tools are now at a price point in range of most SME's, any commercial Anti Virus product now comes with a console and management is by exception, desktop virtualisation and deployment technologies mean builds are down to minutes with no intervention from the builder and largely speaking IT literacy has improved hugely over the last few years so are we able to achieve more with less staff?
The other thing likely to be impacting demand is the move from in-house IT, which required staff to look after a relatively small amount of infrastructure, to managed services where economies of scale mean that a lot of infrastructure can be supported by fairly small amount of IT staff.
So is it the work that has gone offshore or has it disappeared for other reasons?
A dozen years down the line back up tapes are largely gone, log analysis aggregation and reporting tools are now at a price point in range of most SME's, any commercial Anti Virus product now comes with a console and management is by exception, desktop virtualisation and deployment technologies mean builds are down to minutes with no intervention from the builder and largely speaking IT literacy has improved hugely over the last few years so are we able to achieve more with less staff?
The other thing likely to be impacting demand is the move from in-house IT, which required staff to look after a relatively small amount of infrastructure, to managed services where economies of scale mean that a lot of infrastructure can be supported by fairly small amount of IT staff.
So is it the work that has gone offshore or has it disappeared for other reasons?
If the latter weren't required the former wouldn't be an issue.
Guessing you are on the touchy feely side of the job?
Guessing you are on the touchy feely side of the job?
This is karma for businesses that did not have the vision to understand the long-term implications of outsourcing complex IT work that is often woven into the business via complex processes, workflows, and data integration.
It's bad enough MBA types intruding on techical decisions, now we find out they don't even know their own discipline, never mind ours.
You don't need to be Alan Sugar to figure out if there's no demand, there's naff all point in supplying it do you?
Course some of it could be addressed by dropping a few of the job requirements.
Full head of non-grey hair
Easily fooled
Will work for peanuts
Drop some or all of those and things won't be as crisised...
You don't need to be Alan Sugar to figure out if there's no demand, there's naff all point in supplying it do you?
Course some of it could be addressed by dropping a few of the job requirements.
Full head of non-grey hair
Easily fooled
Will work for peanuts
Drop some or all of those and things won't be as crisised...
A few years ago I was temping for a company.
After a few weeks I was advised to die my hair to look a bit younger.
When I suggested what they can do with their advice I got fired.
Age discrimination has its price and this one cost them dearly.
After a few weeks I was advised to die my hair to look a bit younger.
When I suggested what they can do with their advice I got fired.
Age discrimination has its price and this one cost them dearly.
who's that dumb.
Given how often age discriminataion comes up, I probably need to get out more...
My favourite, quite topically was from a recruiter.
They asked me for my date of birth. They were of course well aware of the rules surrounding the use of this information. Apparently though it was nothing to do with wanting to know my age. It was to distinguish me in their records from all the other Tony Hopkinsons.
The role was Database/designer programmer.
So asked what they would do if they found another Tony Hopkinson born on the same date.
Personally I think being able to ask that question and realise it's significance should have made me a shoe-in candidate, but there you go...
Given how often age discriminataion comes up, I probably need to get out more...
My favourite, quite topically was from a recruiter.
They asked me for my date of birth. They were of course well aware of the rules surrounding the use of this information. Apparently though it was nothing to do with wanting to know my age. It was to distinguish me in their records from all the other Tony Hopkinsons.
The role was Database/designer programmer.
So asked what they would do if they found another Tony Hopkinson born on the same date.
Personally I think being able to ask that question and realise it's significance should have made me a shoe-in candidate, but there you go...
and downvoting your posts...
Sorted
Sorted
I would have had a field day, followed by a nice holiday, after that one too! Well done.
The outsourcing of IT talent is not confined to the UK. IBM is decimating itself here in the US and why would any student coming into the field EVER consider it when firms such as that and others too - CSC, Xerox etx, will simply brain sweep you for knowledge and then can you for a replacement in Bangalore making $4 an hour. The field at the bottom dries up so growth to the top slows and, eventually, nobody has risen up. And the bottom is also empty.
It's the mantra of all thos compaanies in the too big to fail category for starters.
I mean if the youth of yesteryear had anything about them. They would have worked for naff all for a decade, so they'd be ready and waiting for us old people to die.
In fact the greedy unhelpful swines should have done this as a generation, so there would be loads of them giving the left side of the supply and demand it's proper supremacy....
In fact the greedy unhelpful swines should have done this as a generation, so there would be loads of them giving the left side of the supply and demand it's proper supremacy....
Don't flatter yourselves, it's not only an IT issue. I remember working as a sales manager in the 90's, when all the kids I used to beat up in school were all of a sudden cool and hip for once. Nerds became the needed elite, and a a result demanded top dollar for their supremacy.
I always said that it would come to an end. As more and more people were buying computers at home and becoming more IT savvy, the bottom would fall out of the market if they weren't prepared to work for less. Because IT was initially something nobody knew about and creating new code was like being given a blank cheque, there was no way to determine value of services and thus, geeks were setting the bar, as high as they could. I had a friend who wrote a Python script the banks bought and he made millions INSTANTLY, literally one night begging for someone to buy him a beer and the next day ready to buy the bar. He sailed on for about 6 months until someone (locally) provided new scripts for less. He committed suicide the next day after losing his deal with the bank.
It's just like an overnight rockstar sensation, rise and crash.
I know this seems off topic but really it's the same thing with outsourcing. When an IT employee used to work for ridiculous amounts of money, the market fell and they weren't prepared to work for less and got laid off because someone else can do the job for less. Whether the quality is the same or not, North American consumers are cheap as hell and don't mind sacrificing quality for price (proof, WalMart, Black Friday riots etc.) People think they are actually being clever by being cheap, not simply wise with money or thrifty but EL CHEAPO !
I've said it here a thousand times, this topic never came up before, eventually IT will be a minimum wage role, like working in the mail room or taking phone orders for $10/hr. Why anyone would invest so much time, money and effort to learn a skill that rapidly ISN'T a skill, is beyond me.
I have trades licences, thankfully not everyone at home wants to fix their own car or machine their own parts. When they do, I usually get the repair work anyway after they screw it up. But it's not a field of overnight successes. It's a union field where fewer people have the skills and those who are self taught cause more problem than they began with. You can't just find, copy and paste scripts from the web.
IT was a dead end role before it got going. Remember when having A+ got you a job? Then you needed an MCSE, then a CCNA, now you need a degree in computer science to get even a half decent job, even then its a very competitive industry because everyone felt that simply upgrading certs would get them that million dollar start up role. Then again, a great deal of, the people doing it have no concept of business operations because business operations were as new to them as IT was to their employers.
CHEAP outsourcing:
Because people have decided that buying substandard crap from Asia is better than buying quality from North America for a few percent more, now even Canada is being flooded with bloody WalMarts (which, thankfully, often don't do as well here as in the US or aren't allowed to open at all in many cities). As a result, many good quality Canadian owned outlets are now closing the doors, even The Hudsons Bay company, which dates back WELL before WalMart, is taking a hit and has shut down Zellers (their discount outlets).
What does all this have to do with IT outsourcing and lack of quality employees? Everything, because PEOPLE in North America have such standards and only want CHEAP, not good, CHEAP. It's not just an 'IT' problem, it's everything company's make and consumers buy.
I always said that it would come to an end. As more and more people were buying computers at home and becoming more IT savvy, the bottom would fall out of the market if they weren't prepared to work for less. Because IT was initially something nobody knew about and creating new code was like being given a blank cheque, there was no way to determine value of services and thus, geeks were setting the bar, as high as they could. I had a friend who wrote a Python script the banks bought and he made millions INSTANTLY, literally one night begging for someone to buy him a beer and the next day ready to buy the bar. He sailed on for about 6 months until someone (locally) provided new scripts for less. He committed suicide the next day after losing his deal with the bank.
It's just like an overnight rockstar sensation, rise and crash.
I know this seems off topic but really it's the same thing with outsourcing. When an IT employee used to work for ridiculous amounts of money, the market fell and they weren't prepared to work for less and got laid off because someone else can do the job for less. Whether the quality is the same or not, North American consumers are cheap as hell and don't mind sacrificing quality for price (proof, WalMart, Black Friday riots etc.) People think they are actually being clever by being cheap, not simply wise with money or thrifty but EL CHEAPO !
I've said it here a thousand times, this topic never came up before, eventually IT will be a minimum wage role, like working in the mail room or taking phone orders for $10/hr. Why anyone would invest so much time, money and effort to learn a skill that rapidly ISN'T a skill, is beyond me.
I have trades licences, thankfully not everyone at home wants to fix their own car or machine their own parts. When they do, I usually get the repair work anyway after they screw it up. But it's not a field of overnight successes. It's a union field where fewer people have the skills and those who are self taught cause more problem than they began with. You can't just find, copy and paste scripts from the web.
IT was a dead end role before it got going. Remember when having A+ got you a job? Then you needed an MCSE, then a CCNA, now you need a degree in computer science to get even a half decent job, even then its a very competitive industry because everyone felt that simply upgrading certs would get them that million dollar start up role. Then again, a great deal of, the people doing it have no concept of business operations because business operations were as new to them as IT was to their employers.
CHEAP outsourcing:
Because people have decided that buying substandard crap from Asia is better than buying quality from North America for a few percent more, now even Canada is being flooded with bloody WalMarts (which, thankfully, often don't do as well here as in the US or aren't allowed to open at all in many cities). As a result, many good quality Canadian owned outlets are now closing the doors, even The Hudsons Bay company, which dates back WELL before WalMart, is taking a hit and has shut down Zellers (their discount outlets).
What does all this have to do with IT outsourcing and lack of quality employees? Everything, because PEOPLE in North America have such standards and only want CHEAP, not good, CHEAP. It's not just an 'IT' problem, it's everything company's make and consumers buy.
A dozen years down the line, we will find Object-oriented programmers are a scarcity.
Tech support will have to be regionally re-zoned. Computer literates will speak more English than their mother dictionary can provide for a digital language. There will be more "project managers" not knowing technically what they are talking about, talking more and earning more, while the tech savy ppl doing more earning less.
Tech support will have to be regionally re-zoned. Computer literates will speak more English than their mother dictionary can provide for a digital language. There will be more "project managers" not knowing technically what they are talking about, talking more and earning more, while the tech savy ppl doing more earning less.
I mean, anyone with half a brain should have expected it. The savvy amongst us could see that as an obvious outcome from day 1. I fear for the future, when your politicians are evil devil-incarnates and your industry leaders are devoid of the brain it takes to sweep roads (no insult intended to road sweepers). Oh well.
For the record, my sons are 30 and 28 respectively; one has a degree in Computer Science and they both have IT Skills honed from when they were toddlers. Not in the job market though - they work for themselves. So, with a lopsided, wry smile, I say to UK industry norks, reap what you sow - bleak, innit.
For the record, my sons are 30 and 28 respectively; one has a degree in Computer Science and they both have IT Skills honed from when they were toddlers. Not in the job market though - they work for themselves. So, with a lopsided, wry smile, I say to UK industry norks, reap what you sow - bleak, innit.
Remember the corporate scumbags that outsourced and make sure they don't get any help or employee's. They deserve to pay over double for anything they get. The recruiters should double any fee and up all the incomes to make sure the outsourcing scumbags pay double what they would have. That way the cause of the entire mess the stupid accountant will lose his job.
This is a chance get even with some of the corporations that wouldn't hire local.
Put them out of business.
This is a chance get even with some of the corporations that wouldn't hire local.
Put them out of business.
Gee after more than 12 years of outsourcing and offshoring what did they think was going to happen? Seems top management in most companies never plan beyond getting their next large bonus for outsourcing and offshoring jobs. In the end all it does is wreck the lives of workers that are affected and drains the innovation out of countries where these companies are based.
Oh well I guess they will be outsourcing CIO and CEO jobs now. All it has ever been is a race to the bottom for the cheapest wages.
Oh well I guess they will be outsourcing CIO and CEO jobs now. All it has ever been is a race to the bottom for the cheapest wages.
If I cut the wage bill this dramatically, I'll get huge recognition, so share options, bonuses and promotions.
Byond this excellent outcome, well who cares. Now I'm a top bloke, I can sell my shares before everyone else finds out it's gone nipples up, have a nice holiday and based on my rep as a highly successful manager, get another job and do it again.
Byond this excellent outcome, well who cares. Now I'm a top bloke, I can sell my shares before everyone else finds out it's gone nipples up, have a nice holiday and based on my rep as a highly successful manager, get another job and do it again.
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