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Should police check the immigration status of people they stop?

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Although it threw out other provisions of Arizona's tough anti-immigration law, the Supreme Court upheld the provision calling for police to check the immigration status of people they stop. What do you think? Are such actions a potential infringement on civil liberties? Or is it just common sense that police should verify the status of people in traffic stops? 

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    Justice Antonin Scalia took President Barack Obama to task in a scathing 22-page dissent to Monday’s Supreme Court decision striking down the majority of Arizona’s anti-illegal immigration law, calling Obama’s failure to enforce parts of the Immigration Act “mind boggling.”

    “The president said at a news conference that the new program is ‘the right thing to do’ in light of Congress’s failure to pass the administration’s proposed revision of the Immigration Act,” Scalia wrote in his dissent. “Perhaps it is, though Arizona may not think so. But to say, as the Court does, that Arizona contradicts federal law by enforcing applications of the Immigration Act that the President declines to enforce boggles the mind.”

    The Reagan appointee went on to write:

    “Arizona bears the brunt of the country's illegal immigration problem. Its citizens feel themselves under siege by large numbers of illegal immigrants who invade their property, strain their social services, and even place their lives in jeopardy. Federal officials have been unable to remedy the problem, and indeed have recently shown that they are unwilling to do so. Thousands of Arizona's estimated 400,000 illegal immigrants—including not just children but men and women under 30—are now assured immunity from enforcement, and will be able to compete openly with Arizona citizens for employment.”

    Scalia called Obama’s immigration enforcement policy “lax,” alleging that the federal government does not want to enforce immigration laws, which could leave the States “helpless before those evil effects of illegal immigration.”

    Scalia argued that the entire Arizona immigration law should have been upheld because the state is “entitled” to craft its own immigration policy.

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  • Shoot, this has been going on for 50 years at the Canadian border. I remember as a kid going through immigration roadblocks on the roads and highways up near the border in Vermont and upstate NY. No one seemed to complain about it then...

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    "Are such actions a potential infringement on civil liberties? Or is it just common sense that police should verify the status of people in traffic stops?"

    How can this be an infringement on civil liberties, unless we operate under the delusion that non-citizens-- here through illegal entry or illegally overstaying visas-- should be accorded the same civil liberties as those civil liberties enjoyed by real, honest to goodness U.S. citizens?

    This one is so plain, so crystal clear as to be almost laughable. . .which is also used to be known as "Duh".

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  • The idiocy of this situation reveals how badly the left has corrupted thinking and language in our society -and don't kid yourself, they've done it on purpose to aggrandize their own power. In no particular order:

    1. Police can ask you to identify yourself and anyone else they please if they have "reasonable suspicion" a crime may have occurred or if you are driving a motor vehicle. In either event, you don't have to comply. In most states the failure to produce ID while driving will result in an arrest (based on that states penal code).

    2. Reasonable suspicion is a low threshold. Court have upheld that things like the way a person reacts to being approached by the police may be enough. In NYC "stop and frisk" laws have been upheld by SCOTUS, and they essentially use profiling to justify it. Reasonable suspicion is much less concrete than say what is required for a search or search warrant (probable cause). The hysterical idiocy here is that a cop is not allowed to use the fact that a person looks foreign and or doesn't speak English well to justify "reasonable suspicion". I mean, if you can't use the fact that the person doesn't match the physical characteristics of native citizens to just ask a question, what can they do? The opposing argument also misses that the burden is very low. Producing ID isn't incarceration, it isn't collecting evidence, it's something that we are asked to do in our daily lives all the time. Reasonable suspicion also considers context in the sense that a guy on a ragged Harley is more likely to be part of a biker gang than the man driving down the street in his Ford Escort, if he's looking for a biker.

    3. Ultimately, what we are doing here is codifying common sense. Law enforcement must be judicious but it only hurts us to try and stipulate every action a cop can take when investigating a crime in non-harmful ways like this. Government has run amok in this regard in the past 50 years, so in a way, this can also be seen as the encroachment of the bureaucracy on police officers trying to protect us.

    The real issue here is that the folks who oppose Arizona want open borders, or at least special immigration privilege for Mexican and other foreign nationals. They cannot accomplish what they seek via our legislature so they attempt to do so via courts and administrative decisions. The opponents of enforcing immigration are willing to throw the rule of law and any concern that other constituencies might have out the window in he pursuit of their political goals. The left has made the acquisition of power and the exercise of it their sine qua non, and will violate any principle to do so. It's sickening to those of us who hold to such ideas as the rule of law and the responsibility of the executive to enforce the laws on the books seriously.

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      Re: "The real issue here is that the folks who oppose Arizona want open borders, or at least special immigration privilege for Mexican and other foreign nationals" I agree *see below) and a problem for Conservatives.

      Here is my take on it. When it comes to State efforts to regulate who can be in the State and what they can do about it, the Obama Administration, with the blessing of the Supreme Court, finds no State initiated action justified by a State's right to so regulate. The Federal Government will "let" States take actions only if those actions are what Federal Agents by Federal law do. And in this case what that boils down to is that State officials can ask to see immigration ID. But the initiative is solely the Federal Government's. They print the ID Card - for example no State ID card will now past Constitutional muster

      Now please follow. At the same time our Federal Government has no objection when States, under their own initiative and Sovereignty, place as many and individual and unique and onerous burdens on health insurance policies when the States establish what a policy must cover if it is to be offered for sale in the State - driving up the cost of health insurance.

      We understand the Democrats plans to put private health insurance out of business. But the government's interest in immigration is less obvious as only a Democratic set of interests.To me it is clear why the Federal Government has the policies it has re immigration - and the 500 pound guerrilla in the room is NAFTA.

      It was NAFTA that resulted in a weak peso, sent jobs to China, and wreaked havoc with Mexican unemployment. And I have myself little doubt that two things follow - one, we cannot solve our immigration issues while NAFTA stands and two, it is the interests of the Federal Government - including Conservatives who pushed for NAFTA, not to touch NAFTA.

      I do not know this, but I would not be at all surprised if is surfaced that part of our agreement with the Mexican Government to get NAFTA signed was a promise to "look the other way" if employment in Mexico went south and immigration into the United States increased.

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      • Only one big problem with your rather tortured analysis. Immigration enforcement laxity pre-dated NAFTA, so your entire argument goes out the window. However, I completely agree with your observation that this is a bipartisan phenomena.Thankfully, I don't count myself as a member of either idiotic party - Thomas Jefferson loathed political parties, btw, and was worried that factionalism would be the death of our republic.

        What you are discounting is the craven nature of politicians today - of all stripes. Since our federal govt became a system for distributing wealth and opportunity in our society based on who one is wrt arbitrarily determined privileged or underprivileged groups, it only attracts people who are comfortable with making rules like that, even though most of us know that top down, complex rules never work as planned and always result in unintended consequences in any complex system. It's axiomatic, and in this case, immoral.

        Just consider this example. A rule that say gives an advantage to someone who is purple, assumes that all purple people are in the lot they are in due to their purpleness. We all know that there are many reasons people end up poor or in jail or in bad schools or broken families, and rarely is their purpleness the only cause, and usually only one of many causes (assuming anti-purpleness actually has caused it at all), so axiomatically some people who don't need the advantage will not receive it. Others, who might actually need more help due to truly devastating actions against them don't get enough help (although there are many laws on the books such people have recourse to if they can show real harm).

        In order to administer such a system, you have to just not care about the inaccuracy of the blunt object of their policies, you also have to believe in the "collective good" abstraction - but make the fundamental mistake of believing that the "collective" is real. It is not, it's an aggregate that describes the individuals "average" on some attribute. Better said, the effects aren't experienced "collectively", the underprivilege that may exist occurs to an individual, yes? Do you see how subtly the individual's rights just get murdered with this slight of hand, without us ever realizing it?

        Just sayin...

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  • I did not vote on this issue because, as a retired PO I know that the police will react to policies and procedures set up by the political powers that be. As an example, if "calls for service" are driven by illegals then the officer is more likely to act but if that is not an issue in his/her junisdiction then the officer probably will not act.

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    I know you won't believe this. I know you have something like indignation, or contempt or scorn. But the sub text in this whole debate is NAFTA.And the reason is that no one can take a position in this debate without finding someone to vent their anger. Their anger should be directed at NAFTA and the Liberals and faux Conservatives who pushed for it.

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  • Is there any country in this world that do not allow the police to check ID of citizens and the answer is yes. Guess which one that is. USA. This country is lawless at present. The greatest nation on earth and it cannot protect it's border and allow the illegals to come and siphon off the benefit of the citizens. They are allowed to have louder voice then the citizens. And this is only because of the politicians who wants to cater to these special interest groups. We need a strong commander who will be willing to deport all the illegals according to our existing immigration law. Immigration law is not working from the illegals point of view but for the citizens of this country and the legal immigrants the existing law works fine. The politicians needs to listen to the citizens of this country not the illegals. Any politicians who are afraid of illegals and the Hispanic power needs to be voted down. Hispanics do not have any right to ask for exemption for their illegals for that is being racist and is asking to break the existing law.

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    What is the reason for this Administrations Immigration Policies

    Clearly our Federal Government policy is to preempt any State initiative.. When it comes to State efforts to regulate who can be in a State and what the State can do about it, the Obama Administration, with the blessing of the Supreme Court, finds no State initiated action justified by a State's right to so regulate. The Federal Government will "let" States take actions only if those actions are what Federal Agents by Federal law do. And in this case what that boils down to is that State officials can ask to see immigration ID. But the initiative is solely the Federal Government's. They print the ID Card - for example no State ID card will now past Constitutional muster

    At the same time our Federal Government has no objection when States, under their own initiative and Sovereignty, place as many individual and unique and onerous burdens on health insurance policies when the States establish what a policy must cover if it is to be offered for sale in the State - driving up the cost of health insurance.

    We understand the Democrats plans to put private health insurance out of business. But the government's interest in immigration is less obvious as only a Democratic set of interests.To me it is clear why the Federal Government has the policies it has re immigration - and the 500 pound guerrilla in the room is NAFTA.

    It was NAFTA that resulted in a weak peso, sent jobs to China, and wreaked havoc with Mexican unemployment. And I have myself little doubt that two things follow - one, we cannot solve our immigration issues while NAFTA stands and two, it is the interests of the Federal Government - including Conservatives who pushed for NAFTA, not to touch NAFTA.

    I do not know this, but I would not be at all surprised if is surfaced that part of our agreement with the Mexican Government to get NAFTA signed was a promise to "look the other way" if employment in Mexico went south and immigration into the United States increased.

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    • Mr. Kaplan ... as we all are well informed, the reason for this Administrations Immigration Policies is to BUY the women and minority vote in November so they can finish the job they started ... which is to completely ruin this wonderful country we live in!!!

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        Fair statement but maybe not informed enough.

        It is a pessimistic thing that your comment is the only one. One facet of this issue - what does either your, mine or the administration's notions of the female vote have to do with their Supreme Court arguments, or their policies?

        I think I understand what you are saying. You are saying is if we rely on the normal banter of Conservative analysis (notice I didn't say invective) that Obama is toast.

        I hope so but I think this foolish and maybe even compromised. That is I think you both simultaneously underestimate and overestimate the forces in play here.

        It was Bush who characterized border state attempts to turn back illegal immigrants as, in his words. "vigilantes". That saying so is completely out of character for him, it requires the identification some other strong reasons why he said it.

        Do you disagree? Do you not think a government's policy is made more apparent by their presentations to the Court?

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  • Most certainly ... this is nothing in other countries I've worked. Police always checked everyone's papers / passports / registration documents, etc. No one ever complained ... guess just illegals have a problem with this practice (those living off the tax dollars payed for by everyone else). My grandparents and great grandparents came through Ellis Island and Philadelphia before setting foot in the US, and didn't find it offensive or restrictive (especially after spending weeks below deck of an ocean carrier).

    This country needs to start enforcing it's immigration laws and policies ... and there needs to be policies put in place to insure most working and benefiting society are given the chance for citizenship (especially those wishing to serve in the US armed forces).

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  • as a Green Card holder you MUST all time have your Green Card with you (Federal Law).

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