The Fighting Sullivans—which was nominated for Best Screenplay in its day—has a great scene.

The Sullivan boys have just gotten into a big fight, on of them getting into the brawl immediately following his first confession.

Their mother is aghast that they’ll be going to Mass soon, so she sends them to the priest to ask if they can receive communion.

He asks the brothers, “Do you hold a grudge against those boys you fought?”

“Naw,” they said. “It’s over. It’s settled.”

“Then you’re fine,” he said.

Boy rules are a little different from grown-up rules. Grown-ups have lots of resources for dealing with bullies: Boys have two fists.

If the boy puts the bully in his place then moves on, forgiving and showing charity, then he truly has fulfilled the Gospel, I think.

I love this tagline from Catholic Pillow Fight: “When someone asks you ‘think about what Jesus would do’, remember that a valid option is to freak out and turn over tables”—Unknown

Peace sometimes must be made by standing up for what is right.  I think there definitely situations in which I would encourage my children to stand their ground and fight for what is right.

I don’t think turning the other cheek applies to young kids on a playground.  We all know that to stop a bully you have to give your child permission to fight back.  It’s that simple. 
There is no reason though, that other children can’t befriend and help out the child being bullied.  This situation happened in my son’s second grade class.  Several kids befriended a new child who was being bullied.  The new child finally fought back on his own though - his parents gave him permission to fight back, and he did the fighting.  This sweet child and his family are now good friends of ours - and although he did have to fight back for himself - having friends standing with him both on and off the playground helped a great deal.

Wow, Rebecca, what a potentially controversial topic, but I love that you bring this to the table. 

After all, wasn’t I the one who bought The Dangerous Book for Boys for my godson this Christmas, precisely because of my gut reaction to the “everyone must play it safe” attitude that is so prevalent in our culture?  Combined with “all kids must act just like a good little girl” (no wiggling, no energy—I know I’m stereotyping here, but you know what I mean…), I think this book may have something significant to teach us—we who are so entrenched in the culture that we often need help awakening ourselves to what is really in line with proper thinking about such things.

I am often guilty of not really knowing how to let boys be boys, since my boys are on the whole younger than my girls, and I don’t have a lot of past experience with judging what normal little boy behavior really is, so I think I need more help than others in this area. 

Of course, bullying is gender-neutral, but what you wrote is inspiring a whirlwind of thought about both the nature of virtuous behavior in trying circumstances, and the advice we give to kids who have a keen sense of injustice and really do want “peace” to reign… in the form of justice for all.

WWJLD “What would the Justice League Do?

April Hoopes

Rebecca: What a great discussion!

My husband and I have wrestled with how we deal with letting the boys fight “back,” which is so different from being a bully. Paul has instructed our sons to ask the person once to stop, and if that perosn does not stop, our boys are free to defend themselves. Thankfully, we have only had to use this one or two times at school; it actually comes into play a bit more at home, where a boy tends to deal with aggravation in a very physical nature.

I loved Wild at Heart so much and it gave me the freedom and encouragement to recognize a boy’s God-given nature. It also reminded me of my duty as their mother to train them how to act (especially in public) without stripping them of who God made them to be.

Today’s boys are tomorrow’s men, and I, for one, want those men to be manly—not barbarians, but certainly men who can hold their own should the need arise.

Mary—unfortunately, the whole “tell the adult” thing is very often where the process breaks down.  Frankly, many adults in these kinds of settings are NOT interested in actual fairness so much as preserving the peace and avoiding lawsuits.  My kids are pretty universally disgusted with the lame responses they get from the people on lunch duty when they have a complaint.

I love this idea and basically did use it with my now almost 15 yr old son.
It has been very effective, however, he did have to serve a detention because of it.
Schools now a days do not care if a child is defending themselves if they strike another child they will recieve a saturday or another kind of detention. My son learned from that one experience to walk away or find another way to defend himself so he would not be the one with a detention.

(thought I submitted this earlier, but looks like it didn’t take)

Interesting issue. I’m not really sure where I stand. Thankfully, I was never physically bullied as a kid. But I do remember, at least in middle school and high school, that fights could get fairly serious. What if the bully is bigger, stronger, and isn’t scared off by the resistance? What if fighting back just escalates the violence and makes things worse? These are the things I wonder.

Maybe in some cases a kid should fight back. But I don’t really understand the author’s argument that although Jesus chose not to defend himself, we should teach our kids to do so. And I don’t really like the suggestion that choosing not to fight back must be indicative of weakness and fear.

If one child gets away with bullying another child, then there is nothing to prevent him from doing it again (save some miraculous conversion).  So, actually, the right thing to do is to stand up to a bully, even if you get your nose broken.  You may walk away, but then aren’t you, in a way, abetting the next child’s abuse?

Of course, standing up to a bully is heroic, and we can’t demand such brave actions from every child every time.  But we must let our children, especially our boys, know that the teachers are not always right, that what is right is in our hearts, and bullying is wrong whether the teachers act on it or not.  We must give our children permission to do what their hearts know to be right (stand up to the bully), and encourage them to do it. 

Just think if all of Germany had been willing to stand up and do what was right instead of allowing one bully to lead them all into the Holocaust.

I’m with Ella on this one!  My younger son who was bullied somewhat by a shorter little boy than he was which my son was the tallest one in his class.  This little boy was always hitting on him, etc. and he just got tired of it one day and told his dad and his dad told him that the next time this boy did that to look around and make sure that he wasn’t seen by adults and just hit him one time in the stomach.  Well, he did just that and this little boy never did that again!  And, they were friends from then on!  So, boys will be boys and they have to learn to defend themselves somewhat, so this was the thing that just needed to be done and that was that!

Growing up in a tough neighborhood in Chicago, I’ve seen bullies in action, and I know this: they don’t like to get even so much as a paper cut.  They’re cowards, usually they have hurts inside, and if you hurt them even a little, they won’t come back for more.

But I also know this.  Many bullies don’t hit.  They drive vulnerable kids to the breaking point mentally.  Then, the punch comes, after months of torture.  But who gets suspended or expelled?

As a mom of boys, I’m luh-luh-luhving this discussion!  Thank you, Rebecca, for broaching the subject.

This very topic came up during one of our dinner table conversations recently.  We posed the question to the boys about what they would do if they had a friend who was being bullied.  The two older boys’ answers were much less a product of our instruction—we really haven’t talked a lot about bullying yet—but more a product of their own personality.  One opted for more “peaceful” resolution tactics and the other aimed immediately for more a more physical approach.

Our initial family game plan was similar to what others here have offered: first try to diffuse the situation with words, then if necessary use force to defend yourself.  The glitch that we have found at this stage is the ability of any given child to appropriately choose when are “talk it out” times and when are “use fists” times.  For instance, my 5 year old (the one with the pro-fists outlook) is a really small guy.  Because of his size and his personality type, he tends to perceive “nudges” from pushy kids at the playground as personal attacks.  Obviously, not all pushy kids are bullies and so I would be concerned that if I gave my 5 year old the advice “if someone pushes you, you have my permission to hit him back” he may not be able to use it properly.  My 7 year old, on the other hand, may actually need on the spot inspiration for the thought to rise in his head that he might actually need to use physical force.

Basically, this is an ongoing discussion around here. . .

It seems to me that having your children/boys stand up to bullies is an act of charity.  How does this figure?  The consensus seems to be that fighting back stops the bullying.  How many bullies have we met in real life as adults that are the result of nobody stopping them as children?

I am so glad to have read this!  It is what I have been saying to my husband for 27 years!  He on the other hand was always “wimpy” and walked away. He also told my 3 sons to do that. He told them he would rather get beat up than hit anyone.  His rationalization is that Jesus wouldn’t do it.  The one time I pointed out the table throwing in the temple, he told me that Jesus could do that because he was God.  Well, as you can see, this is my husband’s problem.  He just doesn’t perceive that action to be human.  Enough said about that.  I am proud to say that my 3 boys have stood up for themselves many times.  They are better people for it.  I’m so glad I stumbled upon this discussion!

It sounds like you had a great mom. I *was* one of those shy, misfit kids who was picked on. The bullying I experienced in elementary school has affected me to this day. I wish just one person could have reached out to me. For some reason I never felt like I could tell my parents.

I absolutely believe kids have the right to defend themselves. Unfortunately, I was never able to do so. I don’t know why. 

Most of this conversation has focused on boys, but I’m wondering what people think kids should do about the type of bullying that I was subjected to, which is more common among girls – ostracism, spreading rumors, saying cruel things, etc. I rarely had to deal with physical violence. Should this type of bullying be dealt with the same way? I actually think this type of bullying has more lasting effects on the victim. Boys will throw a few punches and be over it.

Whatever happened to the idea of nonviolent resistance, which can be pretty heroic in its own right?

If the adults involved won’t do their jobs, maybe it’s true that fighting back is the best way to deal with a traditional bully (assuming, I guess, he doesn’t have a weapon?). But it sure seems to me that in other contexts, responding to violence with violence only perpetuates the cycle. And so you have never-ending wars in various parts of the world and never-ending gang violence in our own cities. (Maybe I’m just more sensitive to this side of the issue because I went to the kind of schools where they have metal detectors at the entrances.)

If Jesus’ admonition to turn the other cheek when someone strikes you doesn’t apply in the schoolyard, when does it apply? And how do we explain this to our children? Or was He just misquoted?

Our older son is 7, and we are considering involving him in some sort of martial arts training soon so that he will be prepared for such situations.  Anyone have any suggestions, comments, or experiences regarding karate, judo, etc?

One other thought… it’s odd to me that people will fixate on the scene of Jesus driving the money-changers out of the temple (which, to me, is not especially relevant to a discussion about bullying), while ignoring the more prominent events of the Passion. Considering how the Lord responded to bullies in the last days of his earthly life, was he just a big wimp?

And what about all the martyrs who have given their lives without fighting back? Just a bunch of losers?

Or are these examples of heroic individuals who have chosen nonviolent means of responding to violence, and by doing so, have had much more powerful impacts than they could have had otherwise?

Last year, my 12 yr old football playing/wrestling son was tormented daily by a classmate during school.  The boy would taunt my son by poking him during class and kicking him under the desks.  I asked the teacher to separate them and she did for some time.  But it continued, during specials and on the playground.  So my son did what most normal kids would do when he had had enough, he socked him in the face.  He was then hauled down to the principal’s office and had to attend a mandatory “bullying” mediation.  The other child, a friendless, attention seeking immature fifth grader, used the bullying card to my son’s disadvantage.  We had to call his parents and apologize and listen to a sob story about how this child just wanted to be our son’s friend and could he please be friends with him?  It was clearly pathetic.

I would say that if your child is popular, is a good athlete and a generally likable fellow, there are plenty of misfits out there who know how to game the system.  You have to teach your child how to spot troublemakers and how to deal with them in a reasonable way.  This was a tough lesson for my son to learn and a tough one for us as parents.  I now know that my husband and I have to “get ahead” of these situations rather than have them snow ball on us.  Get the school involved.  Help your child maintain his or her good reputation.

Based on experience, I think that Eldredge’s advice is correct, “Eldredge looks him right in the eye and tells him if that ever happens again, I want you to get up and hit that bully as hard as you possibly can”.  When my eldest son was a couple of years younger, a boy punched him everytime he saw him.  I kept telling my son to walk away and pray for him. When my dad heard about it, he agreed with what my husband had been saying, “Just punch him back and he will stop.”  My dad proceeded to show my then 4-year-old son how to punch.  A few days later, my son was punched once more and immediately punched the other boy back.  The boy went crying to his mother and never punched my son again.  My eldest son has never punched another boy again.
My second son was punched a few months ago and initially he started to walk towards me crying, but then he put his fists up, walked over to the puncher and punched him back.  The puncher has not punched my son again.  At a First Communion reception, the brother of a First Communicant kept coming up to my second son, trying to “Karate chop” him.  Eventually, my son, who was a 1 1/2 years younger than his assailant, punched the older boy in the stomach and then intended to punch him in the face, but the older boy jerked his head back, knocking it on a table and went crying to his mother.  His mother told me that I should teach my boys to turn the other cheek.  However, her son was not constantly being “Karate chopped” and he did leave my little boy alone after that.  Neither of my boys ever just start punching or attacking someone, both of them will defend themselves, halting future attacks.

I think that the nun in “The Bells of St. Marys” (or another movie like that), learns that sometimes a boy needs to defend himself.

My husband is the defender of the underdog. When he was 8, he and his friends were being bullied in Hubby’s own backyard by a much older boy (12).

Hubby ran inside to tell Mom, who promptly sent him back outside to confront the bully. “You will not be a momma’s boy,” she told.

“Now go stick up for yourself, and if you want that kid out of your yard, you make him leave.”

Hubby found the courage to not only nicely ask the bully to leave the premises, but when the bully refused and took a swing at Hubby, Hubby fought back. And won. And that older boy? Not only did HE not bother the younger kids again, but neither did any of his friends.

And ever since - Hubby has been the ultimate defender of the underdog. The Noble Knight. Honorable.

I think what Mom taught Hubby that day is this - There is a huge difference between Bullying (malicious) and Honor. It is honorable to defend or stand up for others (or your family, or yourself) when being bullied or taken advantage of. It is bullying (and not honorable) when you use your strength or intellect or money to unfairly take advantage of or exert your will over others.

One more comment, Re: above If Jesus’ admonition to turn the other cheek when someone strikes you doesn’t apply in the schoolyard, when does it apply? And how do we explain this to our children? Or was He just misquoted?

My view is not the ‘standard interpretation’ of the verse, but personally I think that what Jesus was saying is that when you are corrected or disciplined by an elder (the slap on the cheek), offer the other cheek as well (so that you may receive more correction). To me, this verse does not apply to bullying.

I was bullied as a girl, until I was in my very-late teens and learned to stand up for myself. I “turned my cheek all the time”, and it was only when I stood up for myself that the bullying ended. Girls can be very malicious indeed.

I came to the realization that in that verse, Jesus was not implying we should “accept verbal, physical, spiritual, or emotional abuse in the form of face slapping and showing loving pacifism by not responding.”

Instead, perhaps that verse was meant to admonish those who believe they know more than their elders, to accept and ask for more spiritual correction when it is offered.

I would also like to differentiate between Martyrs, who were persecuted for their belief in Christ, and victims of schoolyard bullying who are persecuted because they are smaller or look funny or have a speech impediment or because they are wearing an out-of-fashion shirt.

Of course we must extoll the bravery of those who were killed for refusing to deny the Truth.  Generally, these saints were at the mercy of their tormentors.  They were unable to walk away, and they were unable to defend themselves.

But we can not ignore the many saints who fought to defend the Truth too.  Perhaps we can brush aside St. Michael and St. George as “symbolically” fighting, since they fought the devil and dragons.  But St. Louis IX died while leading a Crusade.

I think the main thing is teaching children that following the rules is not always just (when teachers refuse to deal with bullies), doing what is right sometimes involves breaking the rules, and breaking the rules sometimes involves punishment (like detention) which is unjust but worth every minute if it stops the bullying.

Jeannine, our experience with karate has been amazingly positive.  The instructors are wonderful.  Besides the physical aspect, the children learn how to deal with the bully by standing up for themselves, and how to defend themselves if necessary and how to avoid fights.  The lead karate instructor rewards good grades and academic awards with recognition in class and a star patch for the uniform.  Before testing, the karate school asks parents to confirm that the student is respectful and helpful at home as well.  Parents are welcome to attend any class.  If you’re looking at different schools, I would look for a place that gives you the opportunity to be there.

I keep meaning to purchase “The Fighting Sullivans.”  I now have more incentive.

I personally love how bullying is dealt with in “The Bells of St. Mary’s” with Sister Superior ultimately teaching a young boy how to box when she realized his constant “turning the other cheek” was causing him to be walked all over by the bully.  It’s so much better than that though.

Okay, I should probably make this my last comment on this topic…

Perhaps in the case of the schoolyard bully, the ends can justify the means. I get that. It’s a practical solution.

I’m just saying that, despite our attempts to evade it or explain it away, the Bible makes it pretty clear that Jesus did not use (or advocate the use of) physical violence to defend himself or others. So to suggest that following his example is to be weak, cowardly, or unmanly is, to me, an awfully one-sided, narrow take on a complex issue.

Has anyone read the catechism section on the use of “Legitimate Defense”? (cat: 2263-2267).  I know it is more extreme than the current discussion but I do think it is valid to bring up.

FYI, in the Winter 2004 issue of Faith & Family, we quoted readers’ responses about how they handled bullies. Dan Flynn’s solution strikes a great balance. I quote:

TAMING SEAN

Sean W. had been the class bully since kindergarten and no one would ever stand up to him because they knew he would beat them up. I saw him eat my friend’s lollipop in the fifth grade. I wasn’t going to let the whole class get punished for it just because he refused to own up to it, since Sister punished us all when no one confessed. So I went and told the teacher on him. Leaving class, I was attacked from behind by Sean. Wrestling, we rolled down to the bottom of the stairs. When we were caught, he received his punishment, while I was let off. Similar situations continued for the next few years. However, by eighth grade, I had “won him over” by standing up to him and turning him in throughout the years. He realized that he needed to be nice to me, or he would get in trouble! We ended up becoming buddies and he came with me to see the Pope at World Youth Day after graduation.

— Dan Flynn, Rockville, Md.

Dan’s solution is turn-the-other-cheek without forgetting the interests of the bully. And it’s tough without crossing over into vengeful. It also shows the courage to tell on someone when the person needs to be told on.

This is a great discussion! As a mom of 4 grown sons I’ve had a lot of experience with fights, bullying and being bullied. It comes with the territory.

My husband would council the children to ignore the verbal taunting (sticks and stones…) but if someone threw a punch they had permission to punch back. But there is a delicate balance between retaliating in self defense and controlling hate and anger toward the bully.

I so agree that , though fighting should be a last resort, sometimes bullies need a taste of their own medicine or the humiliation of being beat up to stop.
My two son’s have been enrolled in Shoto Kan karate ( True Japanese karate brought to the Us from japan ) for years to learn how to protect themselves. Shoto kan was picked because it is based on the principles of ” The DoJo kun” which reads
Seek perfection of character
Be faithful
Endeavor
Respect others
Refrain from violent behavior
( More info @ http://www.iskf.com)
My sons are taught to try to work out their problems non violently but that sometimes self defense is necessary and taught what to do and how to do it if that time comes. I don’t worry about my children being bullied, they have been taught well wile preserving their good Catholic values. Many Catholics are against karate and with some karate schools they may be right to question things but I have researched Shoto Kan and watch the classes and have never seen anything that is inconsistent with the church’s teachings.Feel free to take a look at the site,  and see for yourself.

THANK YOU!!!  This subject just came up this weekend when an older kid kicked my younger son at the skate park.  We discussed how to deal with this in the future, generally practicing “turn the other cheek”, which is what my son did—I never had brothers growing up…my gut screamed kick that kid back.  I feel sufficiently armed for future confrontations and we will discuss this tonight before bed!!

TracyE - I think you did the right thing by telling your child to turn the other cheek…*in that situation.*  Isolated incidents, like kicking, hitting, etc.  are not the same as systematic, ongoing bullying.  I know as a mom it’s hard to see another kid get physical with your kid…but it happens, and more than likely your kid might do it too at some point.  Bullying is different.  It is an attempt with repeated incidents to instill fear in and exert superiority over, both physically and mentally, another child. That does call for self-defense, which as previous posters have so eloquently pointed out is not at all antithetical to turning the other cheek.

I used to tell my boys to turn the other cheek, but now I’m much more comfortable with their fighting back because boys are so different from girls. 

I’m not sure that Jesus turned the other cheek just to set an example for us.  Perhaps he didn’t fight back because it wouldn’t have been appropriate——as the all-powerful God-Man, he could have vaporized anyone, instantly.  It wouldn’t have been a fair fight.  I don’t think that’s the same thing as standing up to a bully.

As a mother and a grandmother, my experience has been that adults are just as likely to join in the bullying as try to stop it. Both of my children and now my grandchildren have been set upon by bullies. In all the instances, teachers or bus drivers were witnesses and declined to get involved until my children/grandchildren defended themselves and then it was the child defending him or her self who got into trouble. I even had a teacher tell me that bullies were essential to toughen up the wusses.

Dan Flynn’s solution would get him nowhere today as defending yourself is not allowed in most schools. In the most recent incident, my seventh grade grandson was attacked by 2 eighth grade boys whom he did not know. They jumped him at a bus stop after school, knocked him to the ground and started kicking him. He kicked back, got to his feet and punched one the boys in the nose. My grandson was hauled into the principal’s office and threatened with suspension because, after all, he hit and kicked, too. When my son-in-law pointed out that it was 2 to 1 and the older boys were the attackers, the principal said my grandson should have assumed a fetal position to protect himself and should not have “retaliated.” In other words, he should have just laid there and let them kick him. Authorities may have abdicated their responsibilities but we must either teach our children to defend themselves (and others) or admit that we want them to be helpless victims.

Terentia, I can only groan and hold my head with that “fetal position” thing.  These were boys, not grizzly bears!  If my kid were suspended for defending him/herself, I’d take said kid to an amusement park on the suspension day!

One person asked about girl bullying, but no one answered it.  What, exactly, is an appropriate way to stop girl bullying, which is rarely physical?  The idea of one of my girls popping another in the nose because of verbal torment makes me cringe, but how do you stop the sniping of girls?

Ryan, please look at comment #23 for a reasonable explanation of “turn the other cheek” and comment #33 to see the difference between one act of kid-ness and the systematic behavior of a bully.

Violence is sometimes justified.  It is important to remember that the violence is merely a tool and we must always keep Christian virtues in the forefront.

I can’t help but place these comments into a global perspective!  Anyone else?  Obviously, war and peace are much bigger and complicated issues, but doesn’t it all start the same way?

We moved to a new neighborhood when our boys were 2 & 3.  A 6 year old neighbor boy was always picking on them and bullying.  The rule made was our boys were boss of their yard and he could rule his yard.  That helped on the home front.  When our boys were about 4 & 5 they found out together they could whip “John”.  Problem solved!

This is in response to Ryan and his thoughtful comments. I agree, Jesus was not a coward at all for turning the other cheek. He was “bullied” and chose to not fight back. However, my instinct is agreeing with the idea to teach our boys to fight back. One Biblical defense I have thought of has to do with Salvation History in its entirety. When looking at the Bible as a whole, we see what “we” were like when “we” were children…in the Old Testament. When God was preparing His People for the coming of Jesus, they fought a lot. I just finished reading Judges and now I’m in Samuel and Israel kills all sorts of people in there! An “eye for an eye” was the rule back then. But then Jesus came and showed us a more excellent way. Maybe Eldredge has a point when he says that you can’t turn a cheek you don’t have.

Great dialogue on an all too common occurance…but it’s great to hear from many involved parents who are trying to live their faith.
Regarding girls,  I’m trying to teach my girls to verbally stand up for themselves and others when bullying occurs…to set limits and assert oneself.  Easier said than done as girl bullying (often social isolation, etc.) is quite powerful.  Also to teach it’s okay to express anger - and to have conflict and stand strong for what is right.  Would love to hear from others.  Judy

In response to Sandyone (#36), I can say that I was one of those girls bullied by other girls (in a Catholic school). It lasted all year long—physical, emotional, and verbal bullying. It was hell.

My Dad always taught me that if someone hits you, hit ‘em back twice as hard.

I finally decided I had enough, and when the main instigator approached me to torment me again, I hauled off and smacked her across the face with my trusty light blue Benji lunchbox.

She never bullied me again.

We eventually became friends… roomed together in college… and today, at age 41, she and I are still friends.

Sometimes, you just have to fight back.

Well, I’m back with another comment, for better or worse.

I guess I’m the contrarian on this issue. But I just can’t help thinking that the moral of the story here is: if it works, then it must be right, regardless of whether it’s actually Christian. And with all due respect, this strikes me as the way the world thinks—and Jesus (along with the writers of the New Testament) consistently challenged conventional thinking.

Another commenter made the good suggestion of reading what the Catechism has to say. But the “legitimate defense” section (2263-2267) is about the use of self-defense in life-threatening situations, so that doesn’t quite apply here. There’s also the section on the “just war” doctrine and avoiding war (2307-2317), which is interesting to think about but difficult to apply on the much smaller scale of a personal conflict.

While I don’t believe in proof-texting, there are certain passages of Scripture that keep coming to mind. Like these:

from Matthew 5:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. ...
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”

from Romans 12:

Do not repay anyone evil for evil… On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him;  if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

—-

Clearly, this is just my opinion, but the concern I have is that if we teach our kids to “just hit back,” we may be solving a problem while undercutting the Christian values and principles we’re trying to instill. Though there can be grave situations in which it is absolutely necessary, in general I would say that answering violence with violence is the primal response, the natural response—the way of the world. Practical? Maybe so. Christ-like? I’m not so sure.

From my study Bible under the subheading Instructions for the Time of Crisis:

He said to them, “When I sent you out without money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.

He said to them, “But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.  For I tell you that this scripture must be fulfilled in Me, namely, ‘He was counted among the wicked’; and indeed what is written about Me is coming to fulfillment.”

Then they said, “Lord, look, there are two swords here.” But He replied, “It is enough!”

Clearly there are times when violence is necessary, and clearly those who do violence will be considered wicked, even if they really aren’t.

I don’t think our children should hit first and ask questions later.  But if slapped on the one cheek, and they offer the second, which also gets slapped, what are the instructions for the third time?  Unfortunately, Scripture isn’t clear about repeated abuse.

Praying and offering up our suffering is a good initial response to bullying.  But I’m not sure it’s a morally good response for a long-term problem.  many bullies have been “converted’ once a little guy stood up to them (including one of my husband’s life-long friends who used to bully him).  Had someone not stood up and said, “This ends here,” they may never have changed.

Sorry, that quote was Luke 22:35-38

To Ryan:
Regarding the ‘turn the other cheek’ passage-it was explained to me that in biblical times it was standard to backhand someone across the face as a form of disrespect. By turning the other cheek, you would have met the slapping party’s palm as a way of saying “heck no, you WILL NOT disrespect ME”. So lets not be disrespected and stand up for ourselves and allow our children to do the same. peace

Ryan,

I don’t recall anyone advocating “hit back” as a first response to bullying.  The question is, what to do with continuing or repeated bullying.  What do our children have recourse to?  This is about teaching prudence.  It’s an important conversation to have with our children.  What should they do in a given situation.  I would never teach my kids to “hit back” as an immediate response, but if all other course of action does not succeed in ending bullying I would definitely counsel my kids that at some point standing up to a bully, even physically, would be the prudent and correct thing to do.

Re: #45: You are correct. This was a standard form of discipline, particularly from Master to servant. Which (for me) makes the passage all more real (and still not applicable to bullying or a call to pacifism):

If your Master slaps you on the face to discipline you, you offer the other because you are the servant and your Master loves you enough to discipline you.

Re: #43 Michelle - Yes, yes, and yes. Jesus also says, “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34 &39;)”

Jesus did not preach a message a pacifism. He lived the message of Love and Sacrifice from the Father. He warns us that we will encounter violence in living His Word, and we should be prepared. And just like us - when we are faced with unrighteous situations - Jesus got angry. He was not a pacifist. Think about the moneychangers in the Temple.

It’s often glossed over that Jesus was MAD and WHIPPED the moneychangers in the Temple and THREW OVER THEIR TABLES.

Have you ever watched an old western, in which the bar tables and people go flying? In my mind, the scene in the Temple with the moneychangers was much like that - tables and people and animals and trinkets and goods flying everywhere, and a wild man with fire in his eyes, long hair and robes swirling, cracking a huge bull-whip overhead.

Jesus was moved to righteous anger because a sacred and holy place - His Father’s house - was being defiled by evil. And he took action - some might say, violent action.

Please Note: There is a HUGE difference between Bullying and Honor.

How would you feel - how would you react - if you walked into your fathers (or mothers) house, and there were people performing unspeakably vile and blasphemous acts in their kitchen?

Well, some of you might take immediate action and physically throw those people out. My husband would. And some of those folks might end up with some bruises and blood. And DH would not lose a wink of sleep over that.

And it would be a matter of honor - You do not do this
in my father’s house because it does not honor him. It is disrespectful, blasphemous and wrong. Now GET OUT!!!

If this were YOUR parents’ house, how would you act? How much more would Jesus have been moved to righteous anger for His Father?

Ryan #42 - The challenge is that humans (in our quest for truth)  pull out pieces of scripture and place them in self-constructed contexts. Of course we should pray for our enemies and love our neighbors.  Of course.

But we should also do that which Honors the Father, and frankly, sometimes that means taking up a sword.

Ryan,

Hope you haven’t been feeling bullied but you have been kind of on your own in this thread.  This has been a very interesting and thought provoking conversation. Thank you Rebecca for initiating!

Blessings!

I thought of two things:
1)  The Golden Rule:  Fighting back can teach a young person how it feels.  I know with the very young who might splash or push, getting a dose back teaches them quickly.
2)  A priest friend told us that in his position, if he were attacked, he could choose not to fight back.  A father, however, must protect his family.  His obligation and duty are such that he cannot turn the other cheek when he is responsible for others.  How may this apply to children?  These boys will become men, who need to know when and how to fight back and protect.

My husband has taught our kids to not hit first but if another kid hits then hit back and make it count. Something to think about:  John Ch 18 V 22 &23;When Jesus said this, one of the guards there slapped him and said,“How dare you talk like that to a High Priest!” Jesus answered him, “If I have said anything wrong, tell everyone here what it was. But if I am right in what I have said, why do you hit me?”    So you see with this He did not turn the other cheek but challenged the one who slapped Him.