Congratulations! What a wonderful thing to be thankful for as we celebrate Thanksgiving!

I also use STM, but want to caution that our NFP charts do not tell us exactly when ovulation occurs. Research on ovulation and fertility signs tells us that ovulation almost always occurs plus or minus three days of Peak Day. Yes, the greater probability is that we ovulate within a day of Peak Day, but if you happen to ovulate three days before Peak Day, and were together three days before that, that is well within the range of sperm life.

When my husband and I have a real serious need to postpone, we are more conservative with the end of Phase I.

Congrats. My second child was conceived with similar timing, although we were kind of half-heartedly trying to get pregnant and general busy-ness kept us from getting together again that month.

I don’t know what method of STM you use. We learned the old CCL method and I understood that sperm can live up to six days in fertile mucus. Most method failures happen in the gray area between Phase I and Phase II, so if you are serious about trying to avoid, you have to use the most conservative rules for pinpointing the start of Phase II. For my husband and me, this is where rhythm comes in. Even if I observe nothing, we start abstaining 21 days before the day of my earliest period in the last 6 months and continue abstaining until my temperature has been high for 3 days.

Oh, and in case you are wondering, our second child is a boy. According to the timing theories, he ought to have been a girl.

Re-reading what I wrote, it sounds like I was accusing you of not being serious, despite what you said in your post. I’m sorry. I was trying to say that if you want the 99% effectiveness, you have to be very conservative with Phase I.

Hello!
I am a CCL teacher and have also conceived 6 days out (boy too like the other poster!) but it was because we were trying then husband went out of town.
SO, my question for you if you contacted me would be “did you see any kind of mucus at all that morning and were your relations limited to the nights and every other day?”.  When we’re real serious about avoiding we do like the other person said and use the few days after my period, not really going past day 7 or so (towels come in handy).  So, again, did you see mucus would be my question.  I’m considering buying a fertility monitor next time around (pregnant with #4 now) to make sure I have good info and that’s coming from a teacher.

After having a similar experience we simply gave up using phase I totally and bought a fertility monitor . Very difficult i know because am leaving that right now but my personal experience is that even with diligent charting and very patient and helpful teachers i just could not tell the end of phase I and the start of phase II - I hope you find a better solution than this to your query

Like the oter posters have said. You have to be super conservative if you absolutely want to avoid pregnancy. Usually for us this means no intimacy until after ovulation has been confirmed in phase 3. If we would just like to avoid a pregnancy but it really would not be too bad to concieve then we have a few days that are open in phase 1. For that we take my shortest cycle for the last 12 mos. and subtract 21 days from that to get the last day of phase 1.

Thanks for the responses!  I didn’t observe any mucus that day (it was day 8, I believe), and I have a whole bunch of charts that look exactly like this one and we didn’t conceive, sigh.  We will probably have to wait until three days past peak from now on!  We were delaying for medical reasons, so hopefully this pregnancy goes smoothly in spite of that

Most of my children were conceived 4 to 6 days post peak (husband was out of town for weeks beforehand so no doubt about when conception occurred).  My last 4 conceptions were between days 8 and 10 of my cycle.  NFP is a good estimate of when you o image, but it’s not an exact science.

I’m no expert, but I read and heard from my Creighton model instructor that blood tinge at ovulation is not unusual, and you’re extremely fertile at that time!

See if your doctor will test you for group b strep. there is some research out there in some creighton circles that abnormal bleeding may be due to groupp strep b. my dh and i had it after my 2nd c-section and we miscarried twins and another baby. doc tested us - treated us with 4 different mixes of antibiotics - once we were both cleared we got pregnant and i am holding the little guy as we speak. doc said to really monitor bleeding and any post c/s bleeding after 6 weeks is an indicator that it might be back.

Multiple c-sections, in itself, is not a health risk.  I’ve had 3 and I know a friend whose has had 7.  So, if this is the doctor’s advice based solely on the number of c-sections I would get a second opinion.  Could you refer her to a napro doctor or other pro-life doctor?

What a predicament for your friend.  I’m not going to assume that I know the whole situation with the c sections and doctor.  I will say that I know that contraception in any case like that is still not permissable. There are great ways to be very careful with natural methods. I hear a lot of great things about Marquette on here and the online support could be very helpful.

In the c-section light- I’m not saying this has anything to do with your friend’s situation becuase I don’t know her- but in general, doctors don’t like to do c sections repeatedly, becasue it can cause problems with future pregnancies and the health of the mom. However, 2 sections is not a lot;  I konw people who have gone on to have home births after 2 c section (figuring that was the best way to avoid a 3rd!).  My friend’s mom had somewhere close to 7.

If they do get pregnant, they can do a lot naturally to tone the uterus and really support her body using supplements and herbs. I would suggest looking for a homebirth midwife’s take on the sitaution. Even if they would never consider a homebirth, it is good (IMO) to gather information from a differnt perspective and midwives tend to be less defensive medicine and fear mongering than most doctors!)

Oh actually just thought of this too- ICAN (international cesarian awareness network) is awesome and very good about delivery factual scientific information on cesarians, repeat cesearians, etc. Google will find them.  I would suggest that first! (and a second opinion!)

Contraception is never a morally valid option, though prevention of pregnancy can be.  It’s not just a difference of method; it’s a completely different view of the human person and sexuality. 
As Jenny said, multiple c-sections aren’t necessarily a health risk so a second opinion would be good.  Also, there are plenty of people who get pregnant on any contraceptive method; using the pill or condoms won’t be any more of a guarantee than using NFP. 
JPII’s Letter to Families has some good things to say about the Church both as Teacher and Mother, as not just a teacher of moral law but as a mother whose heart is close to her children who are struggling with this.  Might help them to see the Church’s real compassion in all situations, rather than just “yeah, that’s the rule, but the Church has never heard of *my* situation.”

what her body can and can’t handle is really between her and her doctor. what if the doctor observed something in her uterus (thinning walls, previous scar not healing well, lots of scar tissue) that would seriously risk her health or the health of her future hypothetical baby? if she were my friend, I would suggest getting the second opinion of another ob/gyn, and once she had the full picture of her health, talk to a priest. It’s my understanding that contraception is never morally ok, but abstinence is the only way to prevent a future pregnancy. I have friends who have had more than the recommended c-sections but they’ve been told their uterus was in great shape. I know a lady from church who nearly bled to death during her sixth c-section and they had to remove her uterus because the placenta had grown into the uterine wall, she nearly died. Caution ladies in an internet chat room, what type of medical advice you give unless you are a medical doctor! I am very pro-home-birth, but in this case I would never tell a friend to seek out a midwife’s advice. Yes, there may be doctors who want to limit their liability and suggest a limit to number of c-sections, but seek out the truth of why they suggest that, dig deeper.

I agree with you Suzy. Too often on the Catholic ‘net the advice is all about how doctors are never right.  If you have ever been close to a woman who was disabled y a pregnancy related illness or died you woul be more sensitive to it.  I too would get a second opinion medically. 

It is good to get a spiritual opinion too but my guess is that 75% or more of priests would agree a couple could follow their conscience in this matter and dissent from church teaching.  So there is a great difference of opinion in the Church on how this teaching is interpreted.  Just an FYI.

JMarie, contraception is never permitted, no matter what a given priest may tell you. It is intrinsically wrong because it is an attempt to render the marital union infertile. If your friends prefer to “believe” what they found with research, then consider this: have they researched the “failure” rates of the various contraceptive methods they are looking in to? None of them are perfect, as Anna said. If they are truly, truly concerned for her health, what would they do if the contraception “failed”? If there is a baby conceived? I hate to say a baby is a “failure”, but that is the terminology used with contraception. NFP is permitted because it does nothing to render the act infertile. If used carefully and wisely, it can be every bit as “safe” as contraception, and some would say moreso.

If you are looking for resources to share with her, try One More Soul. There is an excellent presentation by Dr. Janet Smith, “Contraception—why not?”. That would be something to give them for their consideration. Prayers for you as you guide them, and for their discernment.

Michelle

Is that post peak or pre peak ?

I just want to remind you that one of the many reasons that “the pill” is abolished is that it can actually cause an abortion.

And, I believe that there is a stat out there that 50-60% of abortions are of women who were using some sort of contraception. That just goes to show that contraception is not a reliable (or moral) thing to tamper with.

I have had 4 C-sections. Each time, I ask the docs to look at the state of my scar, uterine walls, thinning, etc.

During my 3rd section, everything looked great, and OB said I looked as if I’d only had 1 section. I was greenlighted to not worry about a 4th pg and section.

During my 4th section, however, my OB discovered extensive scarring, adhesions and a paper-thin area in my uterus near the scar. He gently told me my personal risk of rupture in another pregnancy was very high, due to those findings.

We use the Billings Ovulation method of NFP and know we will have to avoid for the rest of our fertile years.

I write all this to encourage your friend on two fronts: 1. the number of sections is irrelevant—it’s the condition of your uterus, so she should get a second opinion; and 2. even if she has to be done bearing children, she can (and should) follow church teaching regarding the Pill and artificial contraception. I won’t lie—it’s very hard sometimes, but it’s worth it!

Suzy,  I tried to be really clear that I don’t know the situation with her friend.  I was speaking in generalities and sharing that people who have had that same news from a doctor have gone to do many different things- additional sections, homebirth, etc. 

I don’t think doctors are always wrong and that was not the attitude I was trying to give.  I was saying there are vastly differing viewpoints from various people in the medical community and looking at the spectrum of ideas/opinions may be helpful.  To me, this seems like a really huge deal and I personally am the type of person that would seek out all sources of info.  I also suggested a midwife’s advice (not necessarily a homebirth) becuase of that different perspective. My expperience is that my homebirth midwife is VERY cautious and will NOT take women that she feels need to be in OB care. To me, if a midwife would corroborate with a doctor after looking at her specific case, that would mean a lot.  This is not a situation of ideals over safety at all.

I was afraid my post may get disconstued and I’m sorry for that. I tried to separate “well I don’t know her sitaution so I won’t speak to that” and “but in other’s situations that I know. . . ”  I don’t think I gave medical advice as much as suggesting there may be more info for her out there to make her decision with.

Also, it was her friend who is writing in.  I might have worded differently if it were the actual person with that situation.

The marquette method has been the most incredible grace in my life. I tried every other method and nothing worked for me. I couldn’t figure out my body. I finally found this method and it really works and is incredibly easy. It is really great for the pre-menopausal years or any of the tricky times. Love it and can’t recommend it enough!

I am new to Marquette but so far it is working well. I just have to get in the habit of testing. NFP.marquette.edu

Gosh, I wish there was a “like” button. I love the “respect the mucus” comment! No advice, but good luck!