Patricia,

I love this point!  I have never thought of it that way, but you are exactly right.  Thanks for the insight!

She was the youngest!  And had her parents stopped at 24, we wouldn’t have this beautiful saint and doctor of the Church!

Sarah,
Your post really struck me & I completely agree.  I think we have to be careful about the worthiness (if that is the right word?) of parents to have children based on income, cleanliness/hygiene, whether they are a “drain on the system”, etc.  Yes, parents ought to be prudent in providing for their children.  But each & every human being is of inestimable worth & has value & dignity beyond measure—regardless of the circumstances that he or she is born in to.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Here is part of St. Catherine’s story:

“Born in 1347, she arrived when the black death struck the area; Siena was badly ravaged. Lapa was about forty years old when she prematurely gave birth to twin daughters, Catherine and Giovanna. Lapa had already had 22 children, but half of them had died. Giovanna was handed over to a wet-nurse, and presently died, whereas Catherine was nursed by her mother, and developed into a healthy child. She was two years old when Lapa had her 25th child, another daughter named Giovanna.[2] Catherine had her first vision of Christ when she was age five or six, saying that Jesus smiled at her, blessed her, and left her in ecstasy. At age seven she vowed chastity.”

I was wondering what happened to the other 25 of her siblings. 1/2 of them were already dead by the time she was born.  So the family never raised 26 to adulthood.  I just thought that was an interesting fact. Times were so different then.  I don’t think it is being selfish or not generous to suggest that there are times when people should limit the size of their family for grave reasons.  Catherine went on to be a Saint but her twin died.  Would her twin have lived if her mom had been able to take care of her and not worn down from giving birth to 22 previous children?  Could her twin have been a saint too? That is only speculation.  It is always a balance between prudence and generosity.

If this story is not right please let me know.  I have not previously read about the details of her family life so I don’t know if it is accurate.

I totally agree, and sometimes the generous thing to do is to be prudent, whether that means having another child or avoiding another pregnancy.

I see what you’re saying, but the truth is I think a lot of people are just using that as an excuse for their opinion this time. People have been saying nasty things for the last three or four pregnancies.

but her pre-e was brought on by her gallbladder complications which has since been removed.

why people get so offended (literally, take offense to!) a woman having babies is beyond me.  their family is beautiful and saying Yes to God is a lovely example to all of us!

Lina, I’m with you—I’ve been trying to figure out why exactly people are so upset and scandalized by someone having a lot of kids! They immediately internalize it and go on about how “I could NEVER do that…” Well, maybe God isn’t calling you to! No one said he was! Is it another reminder to them of the sacrifice involved, that we’re all called to sacrifice and be unselfish? Is it because babies represent purity and innocence, which are contrary to the world and the way it sees things? I just can’t figure it out either! Rachel, thank you for writing this post… I read it after reading another NFP blog where someone said having more than 4 or 5 kids was “irresponsible” and it was nice to read your positive post in contrast! God bless!

This is the funniest comment ever.  LOL.

My comment was supposed to go under a different comment, by j somebody but I can’t find it now!  Have no comment about the hair, lol.

I don’t understand this comment at all.  Are you saying because most women do not have 20 kids, she shouldn’t either?  On what basis?  God has a plan for every family, and they aren’t all the same.  We all have unique missions to fulfill in this world.  I have devout friends who have no kids, or one or two kids.  I also know people with 8 or 11.  They are in different situations because God is calling them to do different things.

Many developed countries are paying people to have children now because their populations are rapidly declining due to the contraceptive mentality so prevalent today.  My husband and I were joking the other day that we’re living in the wrong country.  I don’t want to live in Germany, but if we did we’d have a couple hundred thousand dollars for our 6 kids.

For centuries young girls were practically running a household by their early teens.  St. Maria Gorretti, and St. Catherine Laboure are just two examples off the top of my head.  By the time St. Catherine was 12 (I think) she was running her father’s entire household.  We short change our children by not giving them responsibilities.  So many women enter motherhood with no idea what they’re doing because they haven’t been taught what to do.  These young Duggar girls will not enter marriage and family life unprepared.  I don’t agree with everything they believe or do, but to have 20 children, build their own house, and live debt free…. that says something.

Aside from how I feel about government subsidies, my point in saying that was for those who would have issue with their family size. As in, in this instance it’s a moot point. They are not a “drain on the taxpayer” so we can take that argument out of the equation.

The reality show shows a very pretty picture but they are part of an extreme fundamentalist movement that has many unhealthy aspects to it.  Read up on Gothard and the ATI homeschooling movements.  Our understanding of human development has grown the past couple of centuries and 12 yr old girls should not run households and take on responsiblities that the parents who bear the children should have.  We can teach our girls how to run a household and prepare them for marriage without giving them our job as parents.  This family has such extreme fundamentalist beliefs that they have a home church—no church is good enough for them.  I could go on and on but as a Catholic this family does not provide an example by which I want my kids to live nor does their parenting style reflect something I think we should embrace.  Some of their girls are adults now and do not have a choice but to stay and raise their younger siblings.  The truth is that the parents can not parent all the children.  It is the parent’s job to raise kids and the kid’s job to be a sibling.  Why aren’t the boys trained to run the household and bear the same resonsibilities as the girls?  We can prepare our girls for married life without making them our endentured servants.  I am very surprised that as Catholics so many think this family embraces what our Church teaches.

Actually, for the months they lived in Little Rock while Josie was in the hospital, they attended a church there and like it enough that it was basically featured on one of their shows.  I know they also attend church with their friends the Bates, who don’t do a home church.  Having lived in a rural area in Oklahoma which I suspect is similar to where they live in Arkansas, there aren’t a lot of church options.  For instance, I have not seen a Catholic church less than an hour away from my mom and dad’s house. As far as thinking that they embrace what our Church teaches, I don’t think anyone here is confused about their being exactly like a Catholic, but they are an absolutely beautiful example of loving God, fully living out their faith, and loving children.  I personally love their example of financial responsibility as well.

On last night’s show, Michelle emphasized that their home church is a Baptist church.  They hold services in homes to save on overhead (heating a church building, etc).

Michelle’s older kids are free to leave if they want.  No one is forcing them to stay there and raise their siblings.  One daughter is thinking of going to college for nursing, and they would be free to leave to marry or pursue their education.  The older Duggar boys also contribute to the household.  They don’t care for the young babies, but they have their “jurisdictions” and contribute, in addition to holding down jobs outside the home because they opted not to go to college.  Michelle doesn’t just hand over her babies when they turn one.  She is instrumental in raising all her kids, and the results speak for themselves.  Yes, her older kids help with childcare.  But that doesn’t mean that she just hands them over and ignores them once they’re out of infancy.  If every single one of her kids over age 14 left the house today, she would be able to manage the kids she has left.  She has four children under 5 (including the baby on the way), and then a few more between the ages of 6 and 12.  It would be hard, but she could do it. 

Their lifestyle is not for me, and I don’t think that many people are called to have a new baby every year or two.  But as Rachel said, they don’t drain the system, they’re raising children with a lot of character, and to criticize them when there are so many atrocities going on in the world is really ironic.

“When is it oK”—I’m not quite sure our society has advanced in understanding of human development and that 12 year old’s should not be given these responsibilities.  God Chose Mary to be mother to Jesus and Husband to Joseph at a very young age, most speculate between 12 and 16 yrs. old.  If this was not a good time in human development I’m not quite sure he would have chosen it for His Son.  The advancement of the age of emotional maturity in our culture has not, over all, been a good thing.  Teenagers are remaining children for way too long well into adulthood unfortunately.  I could have used a lesson or two in running a household when I was a teenager.  When I got married I had no idea what I was doing in that department because my parents were the typical contracepting two child family and they had their own life that usually didn’t involve us two kids.  I spent my teen years with peers or being self-absorbed and lazy, a time when I should have had training in what it means to be an adult.

I would not want my kids to marry someone raised like this.  I believe that my son or daughter should at least marry someone they have been alone with.  That is how it is for them: chaperoned until marriage.  Reality shows do not show reality.  And this is exploiting their kids.  Take a deeper look and their beliefs and lifestyle.  It is cult like.  I’ve read the perspective from others raised like this who had to do some serious soul searching as adults.  Here is an excerpt from “Motherhood after growing up quiverfull”

http://ayoungmomsmusings.blogspot.com

“I was not ready to be a mom when I was 12. But in many ways I was expected to be one. No, I had not given birth, and I never had exclusive care of any one child, but at times it came close. Throughout my teens I made breakfast and dinner each day, I was in charge of deep cleaning all 3 bathrooms each week, maintaining the cleanliness of several rooms, and did several loads of laundry each day. I dressed, fed, bathed, and taught siblings. I remember asking my mom if I could have an hour to myself each afternoon where I could do whatever I wanted to and not be interrupted. She replied that it was fine for me to have free time, as long as I finished all of my responsibilities first and I understood that she would still call me if she needed my help. My responsibilities were never fully met, there were just to many of them. Sometimes I would sneak out of the house and read my book on the roof, so it would take her a little longer to find me, it was the only “free time” I had. I hardly ever went anywhere, so I was always able to be on hand to help out. As the oldest, when my mom was too sick or too tired to get up, I was in charge of the entire household. Children, meals, housecleaning and laundry included. Sometimes mom was laid up for weeks or months.”

Claire,

I have never heard or seen any evidence that these girls have the freedom to go off to college.  The college they are talking about is a home study college.  With their lives so public I don’t think they have the freedom to go anywhere nor have they ever existed or had their lives deeply involved in anyway outside of their family.

Michelle,

I’m sorry you had such a sad experience growing up but the other extreme is putting 12 yr olds in change of households and parenting.  We can teach our kids responsibility appropriately without exploiting them.  There is no convent today that would accept a 16 yr old.  There is a reason for that.

Are you kidding me?  They go places all the time!  They have gone on mission trips to third world countries.  The girls have flown off to cities to meet friends for musical pursuits.  Just because they’re considering home-college courses doesn’t mean they couldn’t go off to college (although if I were the parents, I would consider them to consider living at home and going locally, due to finances, and that’s what I plan to do with my son).  Furthermore, if she goes for a nursing degree, there is no way she could complete that entirely at home.  She would have to do some training in a hospital setting.  And, 12 year olds in that family do not raise the kids or run the house.  I’m not going to defend the Quiverfull movement, but I don’t think that just because I disagree with a movement or because some people in it have had bad experiences, means that’s the case for everyone in that movement.  And, I firmly believe that in their case, reality TV is reality.  What you see is what you get.  There are hours and hours of spontaneous family footage that speaks for itself.

There is a difference when the employess of a company do the managers job.  There is a difference between helping out in a family and oing the work the parents should do.  The Duggars cross the line.  Their kids do the work the parents should be doing

I agree.  I don’t think reality TV is a moral way to provide for your family.  There are other ways you can get the message out there.

She does breastfeed on the show.  She pumped for months for Josie, the most recent preemie, and then switched to formula because Josie had a severe lactose intolerance.  With Jordyn, the one before Josie, she was often seen nursing with a nursing cover called “My Breast Friend”.  She has said that her breastmilk is like skim milk, and she has had breastfeeding challenges with all her babies.  I don’t see why it matters either way, though.  It’s her choice if and how long she wants to nurse for.

Just because her kids are close together doesn’t mean she gives up nursing early.  Every woman’s body is different.  There also seems to be some myth that you can’t nurse a baby and be pregnant.  I have gotten pregnant when nursing and continued to nurse in pregnancy, although my children have self-weaned at about 16months.  My children are all about 18 months apart.  That’s just how my body seems to work.  My mother-in-law nursed my husband until he was almost 4 (I don’t think I’d want to go that long, but that’s me) even though he has a brother 2 years younger.  That means she nursed throughout pregnancy and nursed both boys for a couple of years.

I believe Sarah was replying to a comment that was deleted rather than to Monica’s comment above.

I don’t understand this comment at all.  Are you saying because most women do not have 20 kids, she shouldn’t either?  On what basis?  God has a plan for every family, and they aren’t all the same.  We all have unique missions to fulfill in this world.  I have devout friends who have no kids, or one or two kids.  I also know people with 8 or 11.  They are in different situations because God is calling them to do different things.

Many developed countries are paying people to have children now because their populations are rapidly declining due to the contraceptive mentality so prevalent today.  My husband and I were joking the other day that we’re living in the wrong country.  I don’t want to live in Germany, but if we did we’d have a couple hundred thousand dollars for our 6 kids.

don’t know why this came up twice, sorry

It looks like it was copied and pasted, then re-posted.