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[+] At what point can you stop referring to yourself as ethnic and you become "white?" If... 16 replies
- If you are applying to a school or for a job, your incentive would be the other way. I have a Jewish friend whose grandparents fled Europe during WWII and landed in Mexico, where their daughter was born. They immigrated to the US within a year, but my friend still checks off "hispanic" on applications. Technically, his mother was born in latin america, so he's...
Talk : : December 15, 2011
At what point can you stop referring to yourself as ethnic and you become "white?" If you have a black grandparent, can you start calling yourself white?
16 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.15.11, 11:52 AM Flag ]If you are applying to a school or for a job, your incentive would be the other way. I have a Jewish friend whose grandparents fled Europe during WWII and landed in Mexico, where their daughter was born. They immigrated to the US within a year, but my friend still checks off "hispanic" on applications. Technically, his mother was born in latin america, so he's hispanic.
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 11:57 AM FlagI'm half Central American and half white. DH is white American. One of our DCs is very fair with blond hair, the other looks "Mediterranean." I think of them as Latin even though they are only 1/4 Latin. If they marry a white person, I am guessing that their children will likely refer to themselves as white.
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 12:01 PM FlagI have a black grandmother, and am 1/4 black, but consider myself biracial/black. My mom always identified as black and I was raised closely with black cousins and relatives. When non-blacks meet me they assume I am white, but black people always know that i've got some black in me!
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 12:02 PM FlagThat's funny. My friend's gf is 1/2 black and 1/2 white northern european but looks like she could be from any darker-skinned culture - mediterranean, latin, etc. My caribbean nanny knew right away that she was black and that she was also caribbean (no accent or anything). My parents are croatian and i can totally tell when someone's croatian too!
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 12:26 PM Flag
I am half Central American (mestizo) and half white. I consider myself Latin American, not white. Grew up in the US. Do not consider myself American
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 12:22 PM Flag-
[+] What are you buying your DC for xmas/channukah? 1 reply
- same time: radio controlled helicopter, books, nightlight that projects the solar system on the ceiling, pirate ship umbrella, probably one or two more things, but waiting to see what friends give him for bday to avoid duplicates. I think grandparents are getting him a Hexbug setup, and his great-grandma gave him $ to pick out a game for the Wii. Dc 2 is getting a wooden car carrier truck, a set of Eric Carle board books and a 3-wheel folding scooter. Cool...
Talk : : December 15, 2011
What are you buying your DC for xmas/channukah?
1 reply [ Reply | Watch | More12.15.11, 08:37 AM Flag ]We got a Wii as a household. Dc 6 gets a lot b/c birthday same time: radio controlled helicopter, books, nightlight that projects the solar system on the ceiling, pirate ship umbrella, probably one or two more things, but waiting to see what friends give him for bday to avoid duplicates. I think grandparents are getting him a Hexbug setup, and his great-grandma gave him $ to pick out a game for the Wii. Dc 2 is getting a wooden car carrier truck, a set of Eric Carle board books and a 3-wheel folding scooter. Cool convertible toy guitar/piano from grandparents. Oh, and both boys are getting a toy microphone that records their voices, a bit like Sid the Science Kid, as a "share toy".
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 09:35 AM Flag
[+] Please help me calm down. I just got off the phone with my SIL . My in laws are comin... 22 replies
- dh -- it will be fun and she will see her grandparents when they get there....
- we ever talked - she'll also be excited because the grandparents are coming. Get over your issues iwth your sil...
- from being in the car for 2 hours when there are grandparents on the other end? it will be an adventure! you...is Precious spends some time in the car with dad and grandparents?...
Talk : : December 15, 2011
Please help me calm down. I just got off the phone with my SIL . My in laws are coming home on Friday and asked my DH to pick them up from the airport. I called my SIL and asked her if she could watch my 5 yo daughter for 2 HOURs, so she does not have to drive with my DH. She refused saying that they are going at this time as a family to pick up cake for my neices bd. Cake has already been ordered and they need to pick it up and now my daughter has to drive with my DH to Laguardia to pick up mu in laws. I cant stay home that day as I have major deadline at work and by the way my SIL is SAHM whop does nothing the whole day as her dc is in school.
22 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.15.11, 08:22 AM Flag ]your kid cannot go in the car for two hours and spend some quality time your husband...what's the big deal, I used to love the time in the car with my dad, it was the only time we ever talked - she'll also be excited because the grandparents are coming. Get over your issues iwth your sil
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 08:27 AM FlagShe can't drive with Dad to LaGuardia. That's ridiculous. Let her learn how the real world works. People have to run errands etc. She can talk to the gparents on the way home. Your sil said no because she thinks you are a nut!
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 08:55 AM FlagYour SIL doesn't want to do a favor for you because she knows you don't like her. End of story. The fact that you said she does nothing all day says it all. Your disapproval is obvious to her and she is not going to do one thing to help you out. You reap what you sow lady.
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 11:17 AM FlagNP does your dd have any friends whose families you like enough to ask if she can come over after school and hang out? I wouldn't want my dd in the car for 4 hours after school if there were an easy way to avoid it. Do you ahve a babysitter you sometimes use?
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 11:30 AM Flag
[+] Anyone recommend newborn care classes for new grandparents in NYC? 4 replies
Talk : : December 14, 2011
[+] Tips for going to Disney on a budget. We haven't taken a vacation in over 6 years. Di... 32 replies
- overpaying for crappy food. Bring a water bottle for each of you and refill at fountains. Don't forget to bring cameras, batteries, sunscreen, etc. (all overpriced if you have to buy). Set budget in advance for souvenirs, maybe ask grandparents if they want to give each kid a set amount for a holiday gift instead of buying them something? might be too late for that though, they may have already finished their shopping....
Talk : : December 14, 2011
Tips for going to Disney on a budget. We haven't taken a vacation in over 6 years. Disney will be our first family vacation. We have to make a lot of sacrifices to go but feel it's worth it. No flames please.
32 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.14.11, 07:05 AM Flag ]With or without car? We were FL residents and went many times over the years. We stayed at vacation rental homes b/c you get more space and they have full kitchens so you can eat meals at your house if you 're trying to save money. Most have pools and some are part of timeshare resorts too so you have those ameneties too. VRBO.com has some rentals on the Orlando market. Save on souvenirs either by making a budget or bringing your childs' Mickey toy from home (or purchase at a Walgreen's outside of the park). Figure out what park(s) you want to go to. Mouseears.com is a site that gives insider tips too. Have fun, we loved it!
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:11 AM FlagFlying from NYC staying on the Disney Resort we are looking at moderate hotels.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:11 AM Flagplan your days so you don't have to pay for the park hopper option. check to see if you moderate hotel allows a fridge - if so get some groceries delivered including breakfast stuff so you can eat in the room. i know people who had a case of water delivered from costco but maybe bring a refillable water bottle instead.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:14 AM Flag
check auction website and sometimes they have a great deal if you win.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:11 AM FlagEat breakfast in the room -- stay in a room with a minifridge and you can keep milk in there, most hotels have coffeemakers in rooms, etc. Buy peanut butter, bread, fruit, etc., and bring lunch to park so you're not overpaying for crappy food. Bring a water bottle for each of you and refill at fountains. Don't forget to bring cameras, batteries, sunscreen, etc. (all overpriced if you have to buy). Set budget in advance for souvenirs, maybe ask grandparents if they want to give each kid a set amount for a holiday gift instead of buying them something? might be too late for that though, they may have already finished their shopping.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:17 AM FlagDon't stay at a Disney hotel. There are lots of other inexpensive chain hotels nearby that offer free shuttle service (Holiday Inn, Ramada, Hilton etc.) Eat outside the resort -- local restaurant or one of the chains - or head to Walmart/Target and pick up prepackaged food, sandwiches, salads. - cheaper. Also pick up a coupon book at restaurants/tourist shops. Buy souvenirs at Walmart - they sell the same Disney brand as at the resorts -- you can find Walmart almost everywhere, they're a dime a dozen down there.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:19 AM FlagRereading post -- i sound like an ad for Walmart...but going there really helped me save a lot when I went on vacation, regardless of the politics around it.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:21 AM FlagOP: We have 2 small DC's so staying on site is more convenient for nap time, also DH is OK with paying ahead of time for the meal plan because he knows he starts to get moody once spending the actual cash in restaurants and I do not want to be stuck in the kitchen cooking all vacation. We are thinking about the meal plan that includes lunch and dinner we can eat breakfast in the room.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:27 AM FlagThe Deluxe? Don't do it unless you want fancy restaurants. 2 quick service for lunch and dinner are fine, and bkfst in your room.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:43 AM FlagThanks this is what I wasn't sure of, it's good to know 2 quick service is all we will need.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:51 AM FlagWell obviously, I don't know you, but I think with kids it's fine. We did the deluxe because we wanted to try the fancy restaurants, but you needed reservations, the kids ended up eating the same things on the kids menu every day anyway. We enjoyed it, but said next time we'd do quick service.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:53 AM Flag
Not sure whether they have revamped the Dining Plan, but when I went two years ago it was good to have the dinner in the "fancy" restaurants because that included all the character buffets, which are great for small DCs. Also, even though our kids ate off the kid menus all the time, we liked being able to eat non-"quick service" meals.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:01 AM Flag
you do not need to stay at a disney hotel. most non disney hotels also have buses to/from parks, just check how often they run (they ran once per hour at hilton bonnet creek). disney and non disney hotels can be right next to each other. if you are not on monorail i do not see any benefit to being at a disney hotel (i have stayed at both). if you drive to/from parks they charge $15 or $20 (cant remember) per day to park. there are lots of chain restaurants to eat at if you do rent a car. it is also easy to find kitchens included at many places (mostly non disney) and then u can cook. a friend stayed at a marriott time share last yr (but not a time share member) that had pirate ship near pool (sorry do not know the name) which included a 2 bedroom with kitchen for about $600 for the week (off season).
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:22 AM FlagI don't know how we can help. You want to stay on the monorail and you want to get the meal plan. These aren't the cheapest options. After airfare, hotel and food there isn't much more money needed.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:00 AM FlagWhen you say "Disney", I am assuming "Disney World"...check out mouse savers and allearsnet for tips and get the Unofficial Guide to WDW. I do like Disney properties b/c I like the extra hours in the parks that Disney resort guests have. If you don't do full dining plan, but have a car, there's a nearby Waffle House that is great for cheap late night meals. Also--for souvenirs--let each child buy some disney headgear (mouseears, etc.) early in the trip to wear the whole time if desired and then set clear limits (one item or one per park or x number of $ or whatever). Buy sweatshirt/shirts a bit big and they will last longer. Consider planning at least one character meal. The big buffet at the Contemporary probably has the biggest # of characters and if you eat at "brunch" time you could get 2 meals. Not doing parkhopper will save money, but park hopping is fun if you are there for a week or so. Consider going in Nov next year--before thanksgiving---or Dec. after thanksgiving weekend but before xmas break. Pulling kids from school totally worth it for shorter lines. Holiday decorations will make great photo ops. Also--plan to do extra parties (Mickey's holiday party if in nov/dec or Mickey's Halloween party if in Oct.).
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:25 AM Flag
[+] Sometimes I feel like the only person in the world who doesn't have family. I go on F... 8 replies
- Yes, I guess it's just getting really hard right now. My grandparents passed before I was born. My mother is an only child, so no cousins/aunts/uncles. I am an only child. My father died when I was 4. I feel so alone and envious of others....
Talk : : December 13, 2011
Sometimes I feel like the only person in the world who doesn't have family. I go on Facebook and everyone has pics of their family members; their mothers holding their children, pics with their own grandparents, cousins, etc. I have none of that and it makes me feel like a freak. Starting to feel depressed, say something to snap me out of it?
8 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 10:03 PM Flag ]I'm sorry. I think everyone has these kinds of feelings, relative to their situation-- wish dad had been present, wish parents were still living, etc... All we can do is love those we do have with everything we've got and be thankful for them, and for the time we had with those who have passed.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 10:29 PM FlagYes, I guess it's just getting really hard right now. My grandparents passed before I was born. My mother is an only child, so no cousins/aunts/uncles. I am an only child. My father died when I was 4. I feel so alone and envious of others.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 10:31 PM Flagnp Similar here. Mother only child--of parents who divorced when she was 2 (which wasn't "done" in the 40s). She had NO contact with anyone on her father's side of the family. My grandmother was one of three, but her brothers had no kids. I have a sister, but haven't spoken to her in a few years. Dh's family is it, pretty much.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 05:31 AM Flag
Lots of us with more typical families have a very close friend or two who is quasi-family, often someone who doesn't have their own blood kin. My kids have at least two "aunt or uncle" people who are no relation, but are included in our family as if they were. Start working on building strong friendships!
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 04:26 AM Flag
[+] When will I stop feeling like a poser who is going to be "caught" not being qualified... 33 replies
- Yep. Mom got pregnant w/ me, father wouldn't marry her. Grandparents moved (not far enough away), hid mom, concocted story she was working out of town. Her return coincided with them "adopting" a new baby (me). Mom told me the story at 6, said I could never tell, making me feel like the...
Talk : : December 13, 2011
When will I stop feeling like a poser who is going to be "caught" not being qualified for my job? I have a doctorate and tenure, why oh why do I still expect the rug to still be pulled out from under me?
33 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 06:05 PM Flag ]you have "imposter syndrome" which is common among accomplished women. Google it.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:06 PM FlagI also have a doctorate and got tenure last year, and I often feel the same way.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:07 PM FlagOP I was asked to be part of a book project. The guy just asked for a writing sample and I'm terrified to give him anything that hasn't already been published (he wants something from my dissertation that I never published for various good reasons) and I'm scared.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:10 PM Flag
i used to have it too with my job, and now i actually have a lot of the same feelings being a new mom, feeling like a fraud. i went to a toy store today and was convinced that i would be asked to leave b/c what business did i have in a toy store. i totally get it.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:08 PM Flag-
I've always felt this way. I went to Harvard, and there was (literally) not a single day that passed that I didn't think there had been a giant mistake. I'm 36 now, and counsel at one of the world's largest law firms, and I still feel like a poser, and a secret loser. And, despite that, and having 2 beautiful children, and a husband who works all the time, I still feel like a failure because I'm overweight since having baby 2 about 7 months ago.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:23 PM Flag^^And, I'm worried that I'm passing my perfectionism on to my daughter. She saw a little video of Santa saying she's on the nice list tonight, and she choked up with tears. Like she thought she wasn't going to "make it." Jesus. She's 2.5.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:24 PM FlagOp just got out of the subway and the whole way I was thinking, is this the reason my dh gets annoyed when I try to explain or play down ds' accomplishments? He's called me on it probably every other day when someone compliments ds. Am I starting to instill this "you're not good enough" in him?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:50 PM Flag
everybody I know feels this same way no matter what their background
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:23 PM FlagI am a social worker and just today int eh middle of an intense meeting with two clients I thought the same thing. Felt like a fraud who was going to get caught for not knowing what I am doing (and I really and good at my job).
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:40 PM FlagOp can anyone who feels they have this put a finger o. How/why it started for them?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:52 PM FlagYep. Mom got pregnant w/ me, father wouldn't marry her. Grandparents moved (not far enough away), hid mom, concocted story she was working out of town. Her return coincided with them "adopting" a new baby (me). Mom told me the story at 6, said I could never tell, making me feel like the family's embarrassment. GParents die thinking I think they're my parents. Even weirder: 35 years later and 1,000 miles away, bio dad turns up in papers as molester, dies. Most weird: I learn I have 2 half-bros I don't know near me, one of whom used to work where I do.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:16 PM Flag
OMG--I didn't realize there were so many like me out there. I have Ph.D but work in a field outside of academic. I cannot believe that they let me make major policy decisions and firmly believed that if they new what an impostor I was they would ask me to leave the country for national security reasons.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:55 PM FlagThis is what shrinks are for. You can work it out if you have interest, time and $$. Read some erik erickson. Something went wrong in one of those stages of development.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:16 PM FlagBiglaw partner here: I often feel the same way. Rather than being a psychic problem, I think it is a sign that you fully understand how difficult things actually are and it sets you apart from the many who believe they have things completely figured out when they don't have a clue about what is really going on. Embrace that feeling, it will drive you to greatness.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:04 AM Flag
[+] My daughter went to a B, studied at Dartmouth and married at 22, baby at 23, baby at ... 150 replies
- How do you have your own life when you are posting on UB, a forum for people with younger kids? Isn't there a forum for grandparents you should be on?...
Talk : : December 13, 2011
My daughter went to a B, studied at Dartmouth and married at 22, baby at 23, baby at 24. She's a SAHM now and I am proud of her. She married well and is very accomplished. You ladies could learn a thing or two about being nice.
150 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 05:23 PM Flag ]-
Well she used her vagina to hook a husband, and is now a stay at home mom raising his kids. She is nothing more than a glorified hooker.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:38 PM Flag-
OR: mine was a real question. If OP had answered the reply above might have not been written.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:43 PM Flag-
You come to a public forum bragging about how your daughter is "very accomplished" when all she is, is married with 2 children. Congrats on these huge life accomplishments. Next you'll be on here bragging about the new beach house her husband bought, and the shopping spree she went on with her husbands money.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:50 PM FlagNo, I wrote about her accomplishments below, but you chose to ignore them. Not my problem.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:51 PM FlagGraduating college, Married, 2 kids, and SAHM. I'm failing to see any accomplishments here.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:55 PM Flaghow is graduating from Dartmouth not an accomplishment? Your just an a-hole
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:58 PM FlagI'm sorry I see graduating more as a requirement than a accomplishment. Please come let me know when she wins a Nobel Peace Prize, or does something with her life other than have babies.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:07 PM FlagOP's daughter didn't graduate, did she? OP, I don't see where OP said her daughter has a college degree from Dartmouth. Does she?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:11 PM Flag
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ITA - can you say 'living vicariously'. We'll see you in a few years when you're crying over her louse of a cheating husband leaving her with 2 kids, no job and no work experience.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:47 PM Flag
Is this post supposed to be an example of being nice? I don't get it.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:28 PM FlagI'm happy for you that you are proud of your dd, but if it was my dd, i would not be so happy. I want my dd to grow up to be independent and not rely on dh for anything. I also want her to be successful in her career (whatever she chooses to do). But if you're happy for your dd and she's happy, then i'm happy for both of you :-)
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:28 PM Flag-
that's great that you guys feel that being a mother and wife is success. But i'm thinking successful in other ways e.g. happy in her career. By independent, I mean she can use her own $ to purchase whatever she wants to purchase. But i'm aware that different strokes for different folks. If that was my dd, I wouldn't be so ecstatic about her life choices. But again I repeat, that's great if you both feel she's successful and accomplished and independent.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:33 PM FlagI define her success by more than just being a wife and a mother.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:36 PM Flagnp: could you kindly tell us, then, what her other accomplishments might be?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:36 PM FlagSure. She paid off my mortgage for me when she was 19. She worked and invested wisely when most kids were partying and drinking. She's an accomplished musician and has done extensive philanthropic work in our community.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:38 PM Flagpp: then maybe you should advise her to continue to do some volunteer work in your community if she's not doing so already. Imo it'll be very sad if she wakes up one day 30 years from now and has nothing to show for her life besides being a good parent and wife. Your life should not revolve solely on your family. You need to have interests and success outside of your family to feel accomplished as an individual.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:42 PM FlagYou must have not read what I wrote. She has plenty to show for her life right now.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:43 PM Flagwhat is she doing now? you've mentioned her successes in the past. What's she doing now aside from being a great mother and wife. It would be really sad if she's so brilliant and it's all going to waste. She should be sharing her brilliance with the outside world, not just her dc and dh.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:47 PM FlagShe's waiting to hear back the results from her doctoral program applications. She just wrapped up her master thesis and is going to defend it on Thursday. She's continued her philanthropic work in our community and guaranteed funding for her project for the next five years.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:54 PM Flag
NP. How is she successful or independent, unless she has a trust fund (which would speak to independence alone)? She has accomplished nothing of note and is completely financially dependent on her husband.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:37 PM FlagRead above. She has accomplished plenty of note. How strange that you try to cut down my DD's accomplishments when getting into Dartmouth would have been accomplishment enough for 99% of the women on this board.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:40 PM FlagMost people here went to comparable schools and managed to accomplish more than getting knocked up at the first opportunity (something any 16 year old can do).
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:42 PM Flag-
I finished law school, obtained a job I love, and was 6 years into my relationship with the man who is now my husband.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:44 PM FlagCongrats. And that is so much more than what my daughter has accomplished?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:45 PM FlagI think it is. A BA/BS on its own isn't worth much in today's world, and the fact is that she has never functioned in the world as an independent adult. There's nothing wrong with being a SAHM per se, but the way you describe your daughter indicates that you think "marrying well" is a worthy goal in and of itself.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:51 PM FlagThe fact that she had seven figures in the bank due to her work during college pretty much shows that she knows how to function as an adult.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:53 PM FlagShe worked from 8pm to 4pm and went to college? And managed to date someone that she ended up marrying? Plus, your math is still way off - $75k doesn't turn into 7 figures even if you invest in an up and coming company. Investing in an up and coming company isn't the same as having an equity stake of a private company that is bought (and you can't "invest" in those with $75K) Something doesn't add up here....
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:12 PM FlagCollege students normally are not permitted to invest in private companies. They are not liquid or accomplished enough to be accredited investors. And if she accomplished those sort of returns through investments in public companies because she "knew people," she probably violated the securities laws. You don't know what you are talking about.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:54 PM Flag
So basically the fact that you had a law degree at 25 makes you more accomplished. Barf. Get a life.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:55 PM FlagNP: Yes, and what did it get you now that is so worthwhile? A job where you sit in an office for 12 hours a day, worried about billable hours? Do you have interests or hobbies? Do you do anything in your community? Do you spend time with your dcs? You spent your twenties working in school, and the rest of your life working in an office, but do you have a self outside of that?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:06 PM FlagPP. As I said, it got me a job I love and which I am very good at. I have a husband and 2 kids I adore. I exercise, read and cook with DH for fun, and I, like most lawyers, donate both my time (through pro bono work) and my money to the community. What is the problem, exactly, with having a law degree? Do you really think having 2 kids at a bizarrely young age is really more "accomplished"? You must have an extremely high opinion of the kids on 'Teen Mom.'
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:19 PM FlagNo, I am the "NP" above. I also have a law degree. Myself and many of my classmates at our "top 3" law school have the life I described of 12 hour days, stress about billables, and lack of outside interests. We didn't do enough to cultivate interests and hobbies when we were younger because we were studying or doing 'meaningful' things like internships and fellowships. The sad truth is that if you work for a law firm and have a family (even if you are 'part time') you have very little time for anything else, such as exercise or community involvement beyond firm-sanctioned pro bono. And we don't see much of our dcs monday-friday. My point is that I don't think it is a self-examined life lived to the fullest, and it isn't one to be too smug about. (but I agree that this OP is weird and her priorities seem wack and the whole thing is likely contrived) Lucrative, yes. Independent, yes, in a financial sense, except that far too many middle aged female lawyers are sad beings.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:29 PM FlagJust because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. I am not part time, by the way. I work in Biglaw outside NYC. I love my life, and I am proud of all I have accomplished. Whereas the last thing OP's daughter achieved was getting into Dartmouth (disregarding her ridiculous story about making 7 digit returns off her $75K/year job). Promoting the idea that "marrying well" is the apogee of female existence disgusts me.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:38 PM FlagI guess. But before you cut down what someone else is doing, you should ask yourself if what you are doing is really that great. You are helping people with lots of money make more money, and devoting nearly all of your waking hours to that endeavor. It works for me in that I make money, but that is all anyone gets out of it. I understand that you lack outside interests and an identity.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:42 PM FlagYou guys sound extremely bitter. Why does the idea of a woman who has a job she loves and a great home life make you so angry? I lack neither outside interests nor an identity - I have fantastic friends and family and am a very happy person. I'm sorry you couldn't make the balance work, but that's no reason to attack someone who could.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:59 PM Flag
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np just my perspective but I don't know how someone who got married straight out of college can even know if they are independent. Examples please?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:42 PM Flag
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You and your daughter both sound like gold-diggers. What a crass post.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:46 PM Flagnp: yeah, I don't quite get why the OP made this post... what exactly is the point about niceness?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:47 PM Flagbecause the woman on this site are nasty. They are constantly spewing the same drivel: unless you have an advanced degree and a high powered career you are worthless.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:26 PM FlagOP: Yes, that's a lot of what I was focusing on. Very angry women on here who refuse to believe that people can take different paths and still be very happy and accomplished.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:49 PM FlagI absolutely believe that SAHPs can be very happy. But they are not accomplished, sorry.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:12 PM Flagnp: I think it depends on what "accomplishment" means to you. Some people are most fulfilled spending time with their family. An example I can think of is Meredith Viera. She was a journalist on 60 minutes and then left to take care of her children. She returned to tv years later. Some people also have an every man for themselves mentality. They can't imagine a marraige where spouses take care of one another or their roles change due to the needs of the family.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:39 PM Flag
How are we gold diggers? Wouldn't my daughter have wanted to marry an older, accomplished man if she were a gold-digger? Why would she marry someone for whom she was responsible for financially? Hmmm, you need to rethink a few things.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:48 PM FlagSo you're telling us that your dd supported her dh and 2 dc while he finished his MBA and paid for the MBA?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:52 PM Flag-
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NP. LOL. So she worked 8 hours/day while attending school full time, invested well enough to make a roughly 400
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:27 PM Flag^^ to make a roughly 400% return no her invested funds, met an older man who would become her husband (because men like that are so thick on the ground in Hanover!) all between the ages of 17 and 21? That's your story?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:29 PM FlagI think OP is claiming something more like 1000%+ return! DD paid for her mortgage, dh's bschool and still have 7 figures.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:35 PM FlagAn older man? He's not even three years older than her. Like I said, she wasn't spending her time drinking and partying. She didn't seem particularly stressed for time. Yes, I thought working 8hrs a day would be a lot for her, but she used to have four hours of class in the morning, but only 3 days per week. She had two days per week where she was in the library and then went to work. She had the weekends free. College is not particularly difficult. My daughter said that it was easier than high school.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:40 PM FlagI agree that college isn't that difficult, and I worked 30 hours/week while attending a comparable college myself. The problem is that your story has several preposterous elements that make it impossible to believe anything else you say. $75,000 per year does not turn into seven figures, per the rules of basic math. If you really felt that your DD was accomplished, you wouldn't need to lie about it.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:46 PM FlagThat's interesting. I have an undergraduate degree in math (and a masters in statistics) and I wouldn't have graduated if I only took 12 hours of class at a time and I came into college with over 20 credits!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:47 PM FlagWhere did you go to school? I graduated from Columbia in '07 and I used to have class from 8am-11am (only 5min between the classes) on MTWR (Friday off) and that was 16 credits per term x 8 terms = 128 credits. That's the requirement for graduation from any US school.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:52 PM Flag
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my guess is boarding school? I wonder the same thing. Also, I think this post is fake and I've never thought that EVER before on this board. I could always see how something was possible. But this description of a college career just doesn't make sense. AND I went to Dartmouth myself! LOVED my 4 years but I really lived the life of a student and it doesn't seem like this poster could have to do all the poster says she did.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:43 PM FlagNp: also went to Dartmouth, loved it, but can't see how the OP's dd could have done all this. Fwiw, I graduated and married at age 21, got an MBA and worked for 8 yrs before becoming a SAHM.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:51 PM Flagor I used to think of Dartmouth as conservative and not that great a school for women. What is your take? Love to send my NYC DCs somewhere beautiful like that.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:21 AM Flagit is definitely beautiful. i graduated in the late 70s, one of the early classes of women -- it was tough (ration was 3:1 male to female at that time, now is more 50/50). it's a great, safe, enriching place with outstanding teaching and fiercely loyal alums!
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:31 AM Flag
Hi! I'm the dd. Here's my typical day in college: 8pm - go to work. 4am - come home, shag soon to be rich dh. 6am - practice my music so that I could be "accomplished. Pop first adderall. 10am - class. 2pm - study. 4pm - manage my portfolio of investments. 6pm - have dinner with soon to be rich dh so no one can accuse me of not "dating" him. 8pm - pop second adderall and go to work. I slept on the weekends!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:21 PM Flagnp - Ha! The music part made me think that the OP is also this poster: "My daughter is fluent in French, Spanish, Italian and German. She is a skilled ballerina (8 years at SAB) and plays the piano, harp, viola and violin. She has extensive opera training in Italian and German - she sings with the Met. I liked the idea of raising a daughter in the manner that young girls were raised 200 years ago." This poster said her dd was 28 yrs old and a mother. Here: http://www.urbanbaby.com/talk/posts/53713685
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:53 PM Flag
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[+] I'm very pro-union, and here's how I would solve the problem of bad teachers. If a p... 110 replies
- with math tutors already. The kids in my HS? Some are homeless, many live in the projects with gun violence, many fall asleep in class because they can't sleep in a room with their mom, dad and 3 other siblings in their grandparents basement. Kids can't focus because their needs aren't being met at home with is a HUGE school performance factor. Kids like that are 100X harder to teach....
Talk : : December 13, 2011
I'm very pro-union, and here's how I would solve the problem of bad teachers. If a principal thinks a teacher is bad, the teacher gets to choose a new placement immediately. The placement is at teacher's choice. The teacher can choose to teach the gifted class in any school, or a class in an affluent gen ed. The well-regarded teacher she replaces is sent to HER old school for the same time. After some period of time, let's see how each teacher does. If the "poor" teacher can't teach the well-behaved kids, she's gone. But, if the "good" teacher can't handle her class at the original school, the poor teacher gets another chance.
110 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 03:54 PM Flag ]Imagine if every organization in our country operated under this scheme...we would have the GDP of Bolivia. How about, perform, if not, 3 warnings and then bye bye? Seems to work for everyone else. What's so special about teachers that they can't be held to the same standards of all other white collar professionals?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 03:57 PM Flagnp - What if the school has an awful principal who fires teachers because of personal problems and not professional ones?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 04:07 PM Flag-
Did you not notice that Bloomberg got rid of the school board in NYC? The CECs have no power and the PEP is a puppet of the mayor. There is basically no recourse for parents for either bad teachers or bad principals unfortunately. No recourse for bad curriculum either. Wealthier parents supplement with tutors, but pourers ones are really screwed. I am pro-union, by the way, but really not sure what the answer is.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:12 PM FlagThe only problem we have in this city is that it takes way too much time for a teacher to be put in front of an arbitrator. You do remember the rubber rooms? You do remember that it takes years before a teacher accused of doing something wrong will actually get a decision?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:48 AM FlagSome of those teachers were excessed from schools and will not be rehired because there salaries are high. In my school, for example, our principal hires brand new (i.e. cheap) teachers. I would much rather have a seasoned teacher who did not need to learn the ropes at my children's expense. If the DOE really wanted to keep good teachers (not just the cheapest ones) couldn't they offer to pay the difference between the salaries the schools are willing to pay and the salaries of some of those teachers.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 02:37 PM Flag
What if a division of a company has an evil sociopathic boss who fires all the good people? Imagine as if the real world does not manage around the situations every day!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:19 PM FlagWhat are you talking about? We're talking about every school here - a principal can just fire any teacher if it weren't for the teachers' union
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:49 PM FlagJust like any boss in America. Big deal. IF this were such a major risk factor, the economy would be paralyzed. Firing people for lack of performance is part and parcel of all work life.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:35 PM FlagThere is one major difference, though. You believe strongly that a superior has all the power to fire somebody, i.e. fuck somebody's life on a whim. Yes, it works great if the teacher/employee is bad but how about when the boss is bad? How many lives need to be ruined before somebody finally put a stop to it? You can see it either way and I believe neither way is superior. Both require sacrifices.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:45 AM Flagnp: Then we need to ensure we have capable principals. And while there may be a couple of vindictive ones out there, most understand that their own job evaluation and job security depend on the effectivity of their teachers, so they are not going to fire good teachers on a whim.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:51 AM FlagSo you don't think that an employee does not need to be protected from his/her superior?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:33 AM FlagThere needs to be a way to raise a complaint to the DOE, and there should be due process, just like there is for any other employee. But I really do not believe principals are keen on firing good teachers for no reason, that's just ridiculous.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:04 AM FlagA friend of mine works at a rather "bad" school uptown. She's tells me stories about the principal at that school that would even make you shake your head. For some principals getting good school scores go above and beyond good teaching methods. If a teacher (not matter how good or bad he is in doing the job) complains he can pack his stuff and leave. So, yes, there are plenty of those, especially at failing schools.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:10 AM FlagA teacher complaining that he is instructed to teach to the test by drilling kids so in the end they actually have a chance to get better test score w/o the kids actually knowing more makes him a complainer? A teacher has to work for you, the parent, the children, and the administration. Some principals say "fuck those and listen to me only". Yes, those principals exist more than you think.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:19 AM FlagOP: You had better believe a teacher will be let go if she doesn't agree to cheat on the standardized tests. That's when principals will go above and beyond to make the effort to document how bad a teacher is. There is no reason a principal can't do this for any poor teacher. the best principals do this -- teachers hate them by the way -- but they get rid of poor teachers. But most principals are simply too lazy to do this.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:28 AM Flag
np: but the difference is, if you don;t get along with your boss at Company A and you think she may fire you, you can look for a job at company B. it's not that simple when you are a public school teacher - every school is not a wholly independent entity. that said, i wouldn't be averse to the tenure process being longer so teachers had more years to prove themselves and for the system to allow more movement among schools. sadly, i think the metrics by which teachers, principals and schools are evaluated don't really work. i also think that perhaps we need to think about training teachers who go into failing schools and schools w serious issues far more specifically and extensively. i don't think that every teacher is equipped to handle those types of situations and the system certainly doesn't help.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:17 AM Flag
is that different than the real world? you think outside of a school no one has been fired for personal reasons by an unreasonable boss???? That is the dumbest retort i have heard - unless teachers are somehow more delicate than everyone else - why would they need all the rules of our economy totally rewritten for them in case they should face an unreasonable boss??
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:52 AM FlagThat's exactly right. Our entire country works this way. Everyone graduates from college and has to prove themselves every day. Teachers prove themselves for 3 years and then lifetime employment? Makes no sense. How anyone can defend that in our society which is all about freedom, choice and meritocracy is incredible to me.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 10:56 AM Flag
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its beyond logic. teachers unions position themselves as the bellwether on education - against the union = against education. unfortunately that is the root cause of why it i so hard to reform education. the union has positioned itself as the judge and jury on all education reform when really it is one of the suspects. public unions have many issues but the teachers unions are a special case because they have so politicized themselves. You can tell how whacky a unions power has become usually by comparing members work rules, benefits and pension to your own...in this case its is almost laughable.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:41 AM FlagNope, you are just posting nonsense. The states with strongest teachers' unions are ALSO the states with highest ranking public school systems. The states where unions have become obsolete offer horrible public educations. Look at Alabama and Mississippi. Whether or not a union is strong has NOTHING to do with how good a school is. You know this yourself, but you refuse to admit it. The fantastic suburban public schools have STRONG unions. The fantastic city publics have STRONG unions. You pretend unions are at fault, but it defies logic. It's about changing the system in poor schools so that teachers aren't expected to be social workers, mothers, nurses, etc., as well as teach advanced subject matter.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:01 AM FlagI agree. Public Enemy #1 these teacher union folk. You know it's one thing to run general motors into the ground and have the shareholders lose their investment. It's another thing to screw children. There's a special place in hell for people who seek special rights on the backs of children.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 10:58 AM Flagnp: you do realize that it was management who ran GM into the ground and NOT the unions, right? i mean, management thought they were getting the better end of the deal when they gave unions benefits rather than bigger raises. it just turned out that those benefits turned out to be far more costly to GM than management anticipated. If GM had made good cars that people wanted to buy (like they do now), they would not have had these problems.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:13 AM FlagNope. Benefits and work rules were totally out of line. Reorg allowed them to renegotiate all that crap. Look at American Airlines. $4billion of cash on balance sheet and had to file Ch 11 just to beat the unions down. It's common sense right....if you have restrictive work rules it does not allow the employer the needed flexibility. Schools are no different except they involve children so it's so much worse....
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:59 AM FlagBut management AGREED to those benefits. at the time they agreed to them, they did not anticipate that health care costs and life expectancy would increase so dramatically. they made a BAD deal - benefits cost them way way more than anticipated. at the time they made the deal though, they thought they were getting the better end of it. i think that once upon a time, the restrictive work rules served a purpose that is now outdated, but I do think that the pendulum can swing the other way easily. so many lawsuits about companies requiring OT and not paying for it, calling every employee "exempt" when they shouldn't be, etc. it's a balancing act.
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 01:35 PM Flag
If unions were "screwing children", why are suburban schools so great?? They have strong teachers' unions. But please, keep posting nonsense.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:20 AM Flag
So if you want to teach in a good school just screw up your current job then pick the job you want and try hard there.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 04:22 PM FlagNope. The reward for proving you can be a good teacher in a school full of affluent student who want to learn is that you can RETURN to your old school of failing kids. AND, the failing school would realize that even the best teacher needs more support to teach those kind of kids. That would be far more useful than the school system saying "oh, you failed" and hire a new teacher who fails, and then a new one. Instead of insisting the teachers are bad, the school system might realize that it's not about bad teaching, it's about giving teachers of those kids more support! And THAT is my idea. Blaming the teacher because her hard to teach kids aren't learning is so useless.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:26 AM FlagGiving them more support pretty much means taking over parenting of those kids. Like someone else already posted, long day with all homework being done at school, and at least Saturday school as well. That costs a great deal of additional resources, and causes huge rebellion from the kids once they reach middle school years.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:53 AM FlagThe resources are not the issue. It is FAR cheaper to do this than to keep the system that wastes money in failing schools and leaving us with a large population of kids ill-prepared to do anything.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:57 AM FlagSome charter schools, including the Harlem Success Academy which is so hated on here, seem to do this successfully. Some alternative publics like Shuang Wen do as well. Yet they are totally maligned on this site.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:12 AM FlagBut the operative word is "seems". HSA isn't going into those same schools and teaching those kids. It gets the kids whose parents sign them up for the lottery. THEN, if a kid isn't doing the work expected, they send them back to their failing public school. Of course that is not the same issue. And, finally, if HSA was so successful, WHY are they going into affluent areas where the public schools are great? Why are they marketing to rich families? It is obvious that they KNOW that their model isn't really working for poor families and that will be found out soon enough. So they are going for the easy to teach rich kids. Any school can teach these kids! HSA doesn't WANT the poor kids in those schools -- it is trying to change the mandate it has so poor kids don't get priority. Explain THAT to me, please.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:22 AM FlagWe were at Lasker rink when HSA had their outing there, and the kids were 90% diverse. Even at their UWS location there are a ton of diverse kids, way more than at PS9 across the street. I do not think UMC families buy into the charter model if they have a good public alternative, they will only consider it as an option if zoned for one of the failing school and do not get a G&T or lottery spot elsewhere.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:27 AM FlagOf course. But there are enough of those families to make the school different. Don't you find it funny that HSA on the upper west side, and the one they are opening in Cobble Hill do NOT require kids to come on Saturdays, or make parents do detention if their kids are late, or any of the things they do in their other schools that REALLY have a low-income populations? If you compare the socioeconomic situation of the kids at HSA Upper West side with a typical failing public school, it is FAR better. No comparison at all.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:31 AM Flag^^^and, by the way, DIVERSITY in terms of race has NOTHING to do with this. Look at Dalton. A school can be extremely diverse and have extremely rich parents.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:32 AM FlagThe parents at the Success charter schools are by no means rich. They are wealthier at UWSA than at HSA, yes, but the comparison to Dalton is pretty hillarious.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:44 AM FlagYou are missing the point, Eva. (j/k) I didn't say they were like Dalton. You claimed that the kids were "diverse" to justify Eva's UWS school. I merely pointed out that diversity proves nothing. Those kids are far more affluent than kids in failing public schools and you know it. I challenge Eva to go into an existing public school and be forced to educated the population that is there. Prove that her system can work anywhere. She won't do that. In fact, she is STOPPING appealing to poor kids. She now wants RICH kids in her school and she has spent one million dollars marketing to them. Why not spend that money on the school???
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 10:10 AM Flag
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Thank GOD you're not in charge! I've never heard anything so idiotic. How about we fire bad teachers? Problem solved. Not give them their choice of easier jobs.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:00 PM FlagYes. OP sounds like a union civil service worker for sure. Give the slugs endless opportunity to continue their sluggery & punish the ones a decent, competent & capable. Signed, civil service mom
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:27 PM FlagMy dad works for the Federal Gov. The stories are hysterical. This one guy almost killed a patient while drunk on the job. He got suspended (with pay) for 2 weeks. Came back and got promoted (it had been 3 years since his last promotion, so it was promotion time). Awesome!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 05:50 PM Flag
The point is that you TEST whether a teacher is truly "bad", or if the teacher is simply being placed in an impossible situation. If a proven "good" teacher can do their job, fine. But I bet even you would not be surprised that most of the best teachers in an affluent gen ed would be "bad" teachers if placed in a school full of hard to teach kids. I want to get rid of bad teachers just as much as you do. But even you would agree that the criteria to judge them should be fair.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:21 AM Flag
From OP: No, you are all missing the point. It is EXTREMELY difficult to teach a class of poor students who don't listen. But I was daring someone to prove that this isn't true. Make a fantastic teacher teach them. If she can do it, that proves the other teacher is lacking something. If she can't, it proves that you are asking someone to do an impossible job. NYC has offered teachers extra money to teach at failing schools and guess what -- almost no one accepts it. They'd rather have the job at the good school because almost any mediocre teacher can look good.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:27 PM FlagHeh heh - I'm loving this signed HS teachers of At-Risk kids. Op- you have a very valid point. My kid goes to a top elementary school in district 3 - it has the every single amenity for a PS school and a huge involved PTA that raises hundreds of thousands of dollars. The chess program is supremely popular in K! I know of families in K supplementing with math tutors already. The kids in my HS? Some are homeless, many live in the projects with gun violence, many fall asleep in class because they can't sleep in a room with their mom, dad and 3 other siblings in their grandparents basement. Kids can't focus because their needs aren't being met at home with is a HUGE school performance factor. Kids like that are 100X harder to teach.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:13 PM FlagFrom OP: Thanks. I was speaking with my brother-in-law a few weeks ago and he said the same thing. He's a great math teacher, truly, and he spent many years in a high-performing school teaching advanced math students. He moved because of my sister's job, and teachers in another city at a not great school, and he was given the least advanced students. He's still pretty good, but he was telling me how impossible it was to try to teach Algebra to 9th graders who just didn't get it. As he says "they don't know how to learn", which is such an apt statement. Kids are 14 and don't understand how to study or practice or do homework. They can be very nice kids, but no one is teaching them the skills they need -- they just expect teachers to teach them Algebra and when they can't, they think "bad teacher".
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:25 PM Flagor: yep, and chances are if they got that far with such a low foundation they weren't getting that much help at home. The schools that succeed there are the ones that keep the doors open longer and on weekends (like my school) - that operate much like charters- where the school becomes a home away from home almost like surrogate families for these kids teaching them life skills, feeding them, offer after school tutoring for free, etc. etc. but I digress, a really good teacher can adapt to a tougher room - first and foremost. The kids in my school who are near impossible are sanctioned under the wing of the hardest, most skilled veterans in my building.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:42 PM FlagYour school sounds as if it is run by very intelligent people. The problem is when the subject matter teachers, who see the kids an hour a day, are expected to also teach those other skills in that time. It is virtually impossible. But the idea of those being taught as part of the day is exactly what is needed. Sometimes I don't understand how the school reform movement is so idiotic. People blame teachers' unions, but if presented in the right way, all teachers would be thrilled with that kind of reform.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:16 AM Flagnp: Are you kidding me? Most teachers have no interest in working weekends, and working with high needs population where they have to be social worker and fear for their safety. Unless you are one of the young I want to change the world types, odds are you prefer more stable school with decent MC population.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:49 AM FlagThat's why you change the system. Don't expect a classroom teacher to teach weekends or work 12 hour days (most of them do anyway -- ever try to grade the math homework of 100 kids? see how long it takes you) Hire OTHER teachers, or perhaps social workers or other trained professionals, to teach life skills.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:04 AM FlagI have yet to see my dc's math homework graded, or really checked, but ok. And there are 26 of them in class, not 100. And MS math teacher has prep periods to do at least some of this work.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:14 AM FlagFirst, your dc isn't in one of those failing schools, so I don't know what you are saying. Are you saying his fantastic math teacher would be able to teach the same math at one of those failing schools? And yes, math teachers may teach 4 or 5 or even 6 periods of math each day. Um, basic math 101 4 x 25 (or more likely 30) = 100. 100 kids is a low estimate.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:25 AM Flag
I can add that under the current mentality of closing failing schools, it is risky for a teacher with a nice quality of life to transfer to a struggling school, for if you do and the school closes you can end up on the ATR list. I know my friend passed up admin jobs at failing schools just to remain as a teacher at a good school - so much more pleasant.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 10:12 AM Flag
I saw your post above re your BIL and made me think - did you read this op-ed? Out of all the various articles I've read re education in this country, this is what I most agree with. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/opinion/the-unaddressed-link-between-poverty-and-education.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 09:17 PM FlagOP: No, I hadn't seen that op ed, but I just read it. Thanks! That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. I don't have any problem with getting rid of bad teachers (and frankly, I think lazy principals who don't want to bother to do the work necessary are as much to blame as the union). But it is unreasonable to judge a teacher who is given a class of difficult-to-teach kids and expect them to cover fairly advanced subject matter. That's why a fair judge of their ability would be to see if some so-called great teacher could teach them. I bet 90% of the best teachers in great gen eds would fail if put in those classrooms. But I realize I could be wrong and wish those teachers would have to to some brief stint in a failing school to see.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:13 AM Flagnp: But teachers in failing schools are rarely fired, it is hard enough to keep teachers there as is, it is far more likely they will quit. And they are measured on progress, so teaching them anything at all will make you look good. Our principal (MC/UMC school) loves NCLB kids because it is easy enough to get them from 1 to 2, or even 2 to 3, and you get huge points for that. With UMC kids that are already performing well, showing improvement is uphill battle.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 06:46 AM FlagThe point is to PROVE that it's not about teachers being bad, it's about putting them into situations in which any teacher would fail, and when they fail, claiming it's because they just aren't any good. THIS is what many conservatives believe -- that poor kids aren't learning because teachers are so bad. Well, prove it. I'm saying that the reason poor kids aren't learning is NOT because of poor teachers, because if you put a proven great teacher in the same classroom, she would fail, too. If I'm proven wrong, and a great teacher can teach those same kids, well then conservatives are right -- it's all the teachers' union's fault. But if I'm right, and the great teacher fails, people should accept that MORE needs to be offered at these schools, even if it costs money.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:56 AM Flag-
This is not true at all, most conservatives believe that the poor kids are not learning because their parents/families totally suck. And even most democrats will tell you that the familiar environment is the biggest part of success. Alas, that is not something the schools can fix, is it?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:06 AM FlagNope, you are wrong about conservatives. Because they believe that if ONLY a private company could come into a town and run the school, and make millions in profit for shareholders, things would be better. It won't mind you, but that will take years to determine, and in the meantime their Wall Street buddies get very rich -- making billions in profit (really) -- and then they find out things are no better and probably worse. But since investors already made their money, who cares?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:35 AM Flag
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OUR KIDS ARE NOT GUINEA PIGS FOR POOR TEACHERS TO EXPERIMENT ON! Who is more important -- the 30 kids in the class who are entirely dependent on the public school for education, or the 1 teacher who can't hack it? You clearly do not have kids or at least not kids in the public school system.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 07:13 AM Flag-
This isn't about "courtesy". This is about designing an educational system that WORKS. We can keep blaming teachers' unions as the sole reason that poor kids aren't learning. (Yet isn't it funny how teachers' unions don't affect affluent kids in good schools from not just learning, but excelling in advanced subject matter.) OR, we can actually look for realistic solutions. As long as idiots keep claiming the reason poor schools are failing is all the teachers' union fault, it's hopeless. The reason kids aren't learning in those schools is NOT poor teaching. My idea would PROVE this. But you keep insisting that if only the "best" teachers from rich public schools were sent to failing schools, those kids would learn. Right? It's all about the teachers?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 08:09 AM FlagI don't know anyone who would not admit socioeconomic environment plays a huge role, regardless of their politics. However, the unions aren't doing themselves any favor by fighting to keep open schools that have been failing kids for decades, and rallying against any alternatives, whether it is another public or charter school. Yes, these new schools may end up failing too but is it better just to give up on those kids?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:10 AM FlagInstead of closing an entire school the DOE should just have a good look at the leadership of the school and replace that.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:33 AM FlagMost of these schools have had revolving door of administrators, with no good results. NY1 has been doing profiles, and it seems average principal tenure at one of those schools slated to close is between 2-3 years.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 09:40 AM Flagyea probably because they don't have complete control. Its really hard to manage people when you don't have control over who you can hire and fire.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 03:58 PM FlagThis is completely untrue. The principal has full power of hiring and firing teachers. The thing is that there is a due process and the teacher still gets his pay until some decision is made. But a principal can make sure that a teacher does not teach at the school anymore. As in all other industries it does take a good reason, though.
[ Reply | More ]12.15.11, 06:53 AM Flag
this post is so insane it makes me want to laugh. Yea punish the good teachers to protect the crap ones.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 03:54 PM FlagTeacher and public school parent: why has no one mentioned teacher training and professional development? The coursework is a joke when it comes to the practical matters of classroom management, lesson planning, etc. Good administrators have to be master teachers (not bozos with clipboards who count staples) so they can give critical feedback to teachers upon observation and offer meaningful professional development opportunities. Administrators need to get in the trenches with the rank and file and lead by example: teach a class of at risk HS students like the ones I taught at the beginning of my career. Take the good parts of reform and stand up to reject the bs directives rather than passing them along to your staff even though you know they are useless or counterproductive/a distraction from actual learning. Make your school staff a team, not an us vs. them building. Good administrators can inspire teachers to be better. The truly bad ones won't get it, and many do leave, but the ones who need some molding can be guided with support, mentoring, and master teachers to observe and share with. But the system is not set up to allow for this kind of exchange and collegiality. The system takes new teachers, shoves them in a classroom door, and hopes for the best. Any surprise it often turns out for the worst?
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:01 PM Flag
[+] how old was your dc when he/she had his/her first happy meal? 34 replies
- I don't love fast food, TV or candy, but I'll let the grandparents do whatever they want to keep a good relationship between them and to keep my little village happy....
Talk : : December 13, 2011
how old was your dc when he/she had his/her first happy meal?
34 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 02:03 PM Flag ]-
Less than 2 (cringe). Obviously not the whole thing, but that's what she was ordered. In full disclosure, her grandma watches her every day while we work, and about once a week, they have a little outing where they go shopping and my mother takes her to McDonald's. She's 2, and they have been doing it for a while. I don't love her eating McDonald's, but I value the relationship between them, and it's not going to kill her to eat a small hamburger once a week and a couple of my mom's fries, while my mother teaches her how to eat nicely in a "restaurant". There is a little group of old men who go the same time every day and they always talk to her and my mom. It is quite the event. :) Flame away, granola ladies!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 02:09 PM Flag3yo hadn't had one yet and won't for the foreseeable future BUT I'm no longer kidding myself, we now allow him (and younger DD) to eat the Mac n' cheese at while foods, pizza (though DD has something else as primary meal in addition) and have let him order chicken fingers other places
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 02:13 PM Flag1? A few nuggets won't hurt them here and there. We don't eat fast food on a regular basis, maybe 3-6 times a year. People get way too worked up about this crap.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 02:19 PM FlagNever gonna happen- not when there are two In-N-Outs in our town.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 02:24 PM FlagNever, never would I allow my children to eat a bite at a McDonald's.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 02:55 PM Flag
[+] Choosing a tricycle for 2 yo. Any favorites? Has anyone's kids used the Kettler Ket... 4 replies
- We have a ton between the grandparents houses and they don't play w/ them much. They much prefer the mini kick scooters. Those things are awesome....
Talk : : December 13, 2011
[+] I think our generation is too entitled. We haven't seen real war, famine, or depressi... 34 replies
- to broadcast your opinions on social media. Also, our grandparents' generation knew it was important to help others,...
- My grandparents generation thought antisemitism was ok. They believed most women...hardship either. Maybe we're old enough for our grandparents to have suffered through the depression and world wars...suggest we are too entitled. Look at what our grandparents' generation did in Iran, in the Arabian peninsula....
Talk : : December 13, 2011
I think our generation is too entitled. We haven't seen real war, famine, or depression in our generation in the way our grandparents did. We haven't been hardened enough to dig deep and realize our own inner strengths and exercise a strong work ethic and patriotism. Instead we broadcast our small-minded opinions on social media, believing we are right. Sometimes I think we should all just shut up, put our heads down, be grateful and work hard. And yes, I am sorry I had to post this on social media.
34 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 07:12 AM Flag ]well thanks to Holiday Musical Mom the next generation coming up will be even more entitled. Imagine what HMM's son is doing to do at work one day when his presentation is cut short or passed over.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:19 AM FlagThere's no reason you can't have a strong work ethic, patriotism, have lots of inner strength, and STILL want to broadcast your opinions on social media. Also, our grandparents' generation knew it was important to help others, not just be grateful for what their own hard work brought them. It is selfish to "put your head down" because things are okay with you, and not try to make it better for other people. This is what I don't understand about the 1%ers (not all, I'm one myself). We should be grateful, but we are keeping MORE of our money than ever before, so why shouldn't we give some back.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:19 AM Flagbarf. Did you just watch the entire Ken Burns 18 part series on WWII or something? You just romanticized mass death and suffering. Think: Somalia. Think: Cambodia. Do you really wish that on anybody? Small minded opinions? oh, you mean Free Speech? What people in other countries get jailed for doing? Pull your head out of your ass.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:21 AM FlagIn the previous generation, people who "put their heads down and worked hard" were rewarded with a decent life. Sadly, the institutions that foster social mobility in our society have been eviscerated, and this is no longer the case. Why bust your ass if you're just going to get laid off and thrown out of your home?
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:23 AM FlagMy grandparents generation thought antisemitism was ok. They believed most women should only be allowed to work if the men were at war and that non white folks were inferior. Their accepted practice was that the mentally ill were warehoused away from their families and children borne out of wedlock were a humiliation and when possible, seperated from their mothers. We haven't fixed it all but I'll take my generation.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:33 AM Flag-
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OP: Woah, I did not mean THOSE things are ok at all. I am talking about being grateful for how lucky we are.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:43 AM FlagOR: Understood. But I don't think you can just separate out parts. For instance, you suggest we are too entitled. Look at what our grandparents' generation did in Iran, in the Arabian peninsula. Look what they did in South America. Hell, the reason our parents' generation had to fight in Viet Nam was because of how our grandparents' generation treated Ho Chi Minh and the Vietnamese. (I'm not disagreeing that there are things our generation can (should) improve, just the tenor which suggests we are different in this.)
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:08 AM Flag
Our parents generation suffered no hardship either. Maybe we're old enough for our grandparents to have suffered through the depression and world wars, but many are young enough so they didn't even experience that. We are all very lucky. I don't think this current generation is more entitled than the last, though, I think you have to go much farther back in time. Right now, I sympathize with people caught by the recession/depression and OWS, but they really don't know real hardship like what people went through in the 1930s. This is nothing compared to that.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:39 AM Flag-
Well my parents were in Europe during WWII and suffered through war, occupation, famine and civil war. I think that the current generation is definitely more entitled than my generation which in turn is more entitled than preceding generations. Most Americans (I exclude more recent immigrants and blacks) have not experienced much true hardship in the past 40 years.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:56 AM Flag
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I have news for you. We've been at war for 10 years. You may not have personally experienced it, but more than 1800 Americans have died in Afghanistan and over 4000 in Iraq. You want to contribute? Go enlist. My BFF's friend has been deployed from the Army reserves for two tours in Iraq. My nephew graduated from Princeton and then went to Marine OCS. Nothing is stopping you from contributing.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:36 AM Flagtry telling vets and families that iraq and afghanistan have not been real wars, and try telling the quarter of the country living in poverty that the economy is not depressed. we had a president who told us to go shopping after 9/11. people are wary of working hard inside a system that is rigged against them. we have a problem of leadership, not of laziness and entitlement.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:40 AM Flag
[+] At what age is it appropriate to tell a DC about the Holocaust? 8yo is in Hebrew sch... 26 replies
- man who didn't like the Jews for no good reason. Kids understand things being unfair, prejudice, etc., but I wouldn't get into too many details. This is a great article on teaching the Holocaust (or not teaching) for kids K-4. My grandparents were survivors with numbers on their arms, so I don't remember not knowing about it. Good luck!...
Talk : : December 13, 2011
At what age is it appropriate to tell a DC about the Holocaust? 8yo is in Hebrew school and they mention it sometimes. I want to tell him not so we can control the message but DH wants to shelter him as long as possible.
26 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.13.11, 06:55 AM Flag ]I think an 8 yr old can handle the truth. No need to go into horrible details. I have a 12 and 7 yr old and have discussed slavery, Holocaust and 9/11 with them. I'm taking them to DC in the spring and the Holocaust exhibit at the Smithsonian is one place we will def. visit
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:58 AM FlagThe same age that you tell him about 9/11, Darfur, Rwanda, the tsunami, the extinction of the dinosaurs, the war in Iraq, the Armenian genocide, Khmer Rouge, etc.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 06:59 AM FlagWhy do you say that? These are all very different things and will have a different emotional impact on DC. For example, do you really think the extinction of the dinosaurs is the same as what happend in Rwanda? I would have waited about 9/11 but living in NYC it was unavoidable. The Armenian genocide is not as ubiquitius (sp?).
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:11 AM Flagubiquitous (np here). i think the or's point is that the holocaust can be discussed in the broader context of bad things happening to people.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:12 AM Flag
I think if he asks questions then you can tell him about it broadly: There was once a bad man who didn't like the Jews for no good reason. Kids understand things being unfair, prejudice, etc., but I wouldn't get into too many details. This is a great article on teaching the Holocaust (or not teaching) for kids K-4. My grandparents were survivors with numbers on their arms, so I don't remember not knowing about it. Good luck!
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:00 AM Flagarticle: http://chgs.umn.edu/educational/totten.html
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:00 AM Flag
we are not jewish but have honestly told our son about it (with increasing levels of detail) starting when he was about 6. it started b/c he was into world war two. he'd draw flags of the ships (us and enemies) and he started drawing a japanese ship (fine) and then a nazi ship w/ a swastika. SO not fine. anyway, he knows that in some places people are killed because of where they go to church. we know how lucky we are that we live in a place that lets you worship wherever you want. as he has gotten older, we've talked more about it. he still doesnt know about concentration camps,
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:22 AM FlagMy not-quite-6-yr.-old rubbernecked part of Sarah's Key when we thought he was asleep. Had to explain earlier than intended, but we just did it in terms of "bad guys that the rest of the world teamed up to stop". And we explained the concept of scapegoating a little bit. Seems to have digested it okay.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 07:28 AM FlagIf it is being mentioned in school, he's already aware and not sheltered. I think it is important to teach our kids all history on a level that is appropriate to their understanding and sensibilities. In this case, he doesn't need to see the photos of piles of emaciated skeletal corpses, but a discussion of racism/scapegoating and subsequent persecution and genocide (of not only Jews but also of homosexuals, Gypsies, political 'undesirables', etc.) is appropriate. Also the concept of standing up for what is right -- atrocities can't happen if only one person and cohorts are suggesting them; they only happen if the rest of the population goes along with it, even passively, by not saying anything. The famous quote attributed to German pastor Martin Niemรถller is a good way to explain this ("First they came for the communists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.")
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:21 AM FlagIt is years since I read it but Maus strikes me as a way you might bring a boy of that age up to speed.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 08:30 AM Flag
[+] Youngest your db was when you took a 'long' flight? I've been hearing 6-8 weeks..... ... 13 replies
- Flew to LA with an 8 week old. I waited for the 2mo shots as those are pretty key. Plan to do the same with the next kid (grandparents live in LA)...
Talk : : December 12, 2011
Youngest your db was when you took a 'long' flight? I've been hearing 6-8 weeks..... Isnt the immune system of a newborn super strong?
13 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.12.11, 07:59 PM Flag ]Not at all. You are supposed to keep newborns away from crowds for at least the first 4 - 6 weeks, maybe longer. Can't recall.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 08:02 PM FlagNewborns are the easiest to fly with until about 4 or 5. All the do is sleep. Just get a mini sars mask. If you're going to asia don't worry about it because everyone else will be wearing a sars mask.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 08:07 PM FlagIt's actually very dangerous for a newborn to be on a plane. They should be shielded from germs for at least 2 months.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 08:11 PM Flag#1 flew all over North America, then to the Carribean then back to the US then to the UK when between the time she was 2 1/2 months and 3 months. Has had one little cold in her life. Really. Ped thinks it's crazy that the kid's never had a sick visit at 10 yo.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 08:28 PM Flag
[+] Poll: Does Santa wrap presents? How about stocking presents? 28 replies
- Nope. Santa's gift has a bow on it, but no wrapping paper. And Santa only brings one gift per DC. Everything else comes from grandparents, aunts, Mom & Dad, etc....
Talk : : December 12, 2011
Poll: Does Santa wrap presents? How about stocking presents?
28 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.12.11, 06:42 PM Flag ]-
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all presents from real people are wrapped and put under the tree as they arrive. Santa comes in the night to fill stockings and leave unwrapped gifts. Tbis is the right way. Look at any illustration of a Santa visit dating back to the 1800s. No wrapped presents in his sack or being put in stockings
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 06:58 PM Flag
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OP: Damn. Santa never wrapped for us - everything had batteries and was assembled. DH insists that Santa wraps -- including stocking stuffers. I guess I'm going to lose this one - but DH is going to learn to wrap!
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 06:48 PM FlagNo. Santa believes wrapping makes too much work for his helpful elves! He pulls things from his sack and leaves it in the stocking or by the tree unwrapped.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 08:42 PM FlagWe keep the presents unwrapped, and explain that Santa is physically challenged due to all the reindeer related injuries, so he cannot carry out fine motor skills such as wrapping and tape dispensing. This seems to work and my kids (who are now teenagers) still believe this.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 03:16 PM Flag
[+] Do you tell grandparents what they can/cannot give DCs for gifts? Eg no guns, please... 16 replies
Talk : : December 12, 2011
Do you tell grandparents what they can/cannot give DCs for gifts? Eg no guns, please
16 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.12.11, 12:50 PM Flag ]I do. My mom listens; my DH thinks I'm bossy when I say the same to his parents. I tell them what not to give partly to ensure there isn't duplication between my parents, DH's parents, and everyone else that gets our DC gifts. I can understand that I should just let it go but we have ONE DC and will not have anymore so I say it's my kid and I get to make the decisions related to him. :)
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 12:56 PM FlagYes. I have a no guns rule. My mom's family were all hunters and my brother hunts. I have told all of them they are not to talk to DS about hunting and try to encourage him an any way. Absolutely not.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 01:02 PM FlagI think that you can say "DC would like X" and "We don't want guns in our house" but you can't force them to act on it. My mother forbid the buying of barbies and guns, so her MIL (my grandmother) found some old barbies in her attic. Technically, she didn't buy them, but her granddaughter had the toys.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 02:10 PM FlagNot only do we have to make suggestions, but MIL insists we buy the gift, wrap it for her, and LABEL IT with a card "from" her. I stopped playing that game a few years ago, but DH still plays. (And I make SURE to wrap the gift in the same wrapping WE use for our gifts to DS.)
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 03:06 PM Flag
[+] What are admissions people looking for when they ask you about a "typical weekend"? ... 26 replies
- I think it gives them an idea about who you are as a family and what you do. We basically said that we have pretty casual and unstructured weekends - the usual playground, playdate, birthday party stuff. We have local grandparents so we talked about how we usually spend time with them on the weekends and that dc had recently started sleeping over sometimes on a saturday and that was a real treat for him. That our family is generally social, so we...
Talk : : December 12, 2011
What are admissions people looking for when they ask you about a "typical weekend"? DH and I both work and honestly a typical weekend is hanging out at the playground with the kids. Not much enrichment going on.
26 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.12.11, 11:10 AM Flag ]they want to know what you value. be sure to choose something that is true to your values. even if you don't do it every weekend, make it something 1) real (they'll potentially ask your kid about it) and 2) about something that is important to how you are trying to raise your child
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:14 AM Flag-
or-i have been asked this question at a bunch of different schools over the years (multiple kids...) don't read too much into it. i remember the first time i was asked, i was thinking they wanted to hear about my fabulous weekends in gstaad, aspen and our yacht. i've made peace with it as an opportunity to talk about how we spend our family time and communicate a little bit about what we value. if they are looking for the fabulous family with 2 vacation homes, they wont' find them with us. better they know that up front!
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:33 AM Flag
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We were asked this at a school with religious affiliation. I think they were trying to figure out whether we go to church without coming right out and asking.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:21 AM Flag-
Tell them that. When we applied with DC1, DC2 was a few months old and I think I said we spent a lot of time on the floor and tried to cook a meal every now and then. They just want to know whether you spend time with your kids. Also, if you give some long answer involving lots of museums and going to the ballet, and it's not true, they will know you're a phony.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:35 AM FlagThey just want to know how you spend your time together. Everyone seems to think it's about vacation homes but I really don't think so. It's one question that people can answer many different ways (provided they answer honestly.)
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:36 AM FlagI think it gives them an idea about who you are as a family and what you do. We basically said that we have pretty casual and unstructured weekends - the usual playground, playdate, birthday party stuff. We have local grandparents so we talked about how we usually spend time with them on the weekends and that dc had recently started sleeping over sometimes on a saturday and that was a real treat for him. That our family is generally social, so we were more likely to do things with our friends or the kids' friends than to just stay at home alone. Don't overthink it.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 12:32 PM Flag-
This is not a family achievement question, it's a diversity and value question. I remember a TT DOA telling me that they don't want to have a class where all parents are working the weekends, but also not a class when no one is working the weekends. the dcs see, through their friends' lives, that there are different ways to shape a life, and that helps free them to pursue their ambitions.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 01:00 PM FlagIn the case of FRIENDS, I think they ask in order to find out how much money you have. I know someone who faked them out with her Hermes bag and rented upstate cabin she called their country home. They got in, and even she thinks it was because they assumed the family was loaded. I think the weekend question is obnoxious. If it weren't to find out about country homes, they could ask, What activities do you like doing together as a family? What do you value your child doing with his/her time? Etc etc. People could still slip in that they had second and third homes, but it wouldn't be so obvious. Friends seems very gauche.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 09:14 AM FlagWhat we wrote, I hope it's ok: every weekend starts out with 3 hours of language school for dc. Then we grab lunch on the way home where we talk about what happened during the week and our weekend plans. We come home and go to the park with dh and sibling, where dcs run around and have active time. After that, quiet time at home filled with reading and board games. Dinner is family time, unless we have company. On Sunday mornings we all go to the pool, then a big brunch at home or out. The afternoons are frequently filled with concerts or young people theater events, birthday parties, or trips to a museum, zoo or various NYC cites.
[ Reply | More ]12.13.11, 09:24 AM Flag-
[+] How do I nicely tell my out of state inlaws that this Christmas is being reserved for... 58 replies
- where everything and anything is all about and for the children. That said, are your children old enough to notice if their grandparents are there or not? If they are, don't deprive them of having an extended family at holiday time, it's important. As one who watched other families have grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. over for the holidays...
Talk : : December 12, 2011
How do I nicely tell my out of state inlaws that this Christmas is being reserved for our immediate family only? After Thanksgiving, I cannot take another week with them in my home.
58 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.12.11, 10:56 AM Flag ]tell them you'll be in bermuda and then don't answer the land line for a week
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:01 AM Flag-
I don't know, but do it today! Waiting so late to give disappointing news is rude, even if you do desperately need the holiday to yourselves.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:03 AM FlagThis is awfully late to let them down. You can't go for a day or two? And then make a work excuse???
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:04 AM FlagNo, they live on Mars, basically, so it isn't a day or two trip. They are willing to come to us but then they stay for many, many days (I am the Thanksgiving poster who told the story about how they CAME BACK after leaving because the traffic was bad and how DH talked smack about them into the baby monitor, which they heard...but they are still hoping to return!)
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:09 AM Flag
Have they actually been invited? It's different if you're rescinding an invitation vs. clarifying that you're not hosting.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:05 AM FlagNo -- no invite. We are just clarifying (they sent an email last night asking what our plan is, so we need to respond ASAP so that they don't get out mapquest and start plotting all the Burger Kings along the way).
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:07 AM FlagOK, then have your DH email that you (sorry, but you'll have to take the blame here; you'd get it anyway) have decreed that the family is having a sit-pjs-all-day and eat takeout Christmas, as you're exhausted with (fill in the blank). He can suggest you all get together for Easter or Mothers' Day or whatever.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:20 AM Flag
a dh: This is not something you email. You have to own this. "Mom and Dad, this is not easy for me to say but I really want a quiet Christmas with Nygil and Frasier." (That said, if grandma and grandpa are willing to travel, I say Christmas is the wrong holiday to say no to. Tell them next year that you would love to see them for Thanksgiving OR Christmas but both is too much.)
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:11 AM FlagIn our family, T'giving is the big holiday so I don't think missing Xmas will be that big of a deal. DH is scared of them (for good reason) so he is going to have to do an email. Sad, I know.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:13 AM FlagThe "scared of them" issue needs to be resolved, maybe not at Xmas but soon. Scared they will stab him in his sleep? Scared he will be cut out of the will? Scared they will never speak to him again? Scared they will yell at him? You are right to have him handle Xmas himself and face that the world will not end if he disappoints them.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:22 AM FlagNo email. No good will come of it. If they are going to be offended, they will. They will not only stew over it but they will think that you put him up to it -- otherwise, he would have called, all the more so if it is worded in a way he might not have on his own
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:36 AM Flag
Tell them you are going to divide the holidays between families from now on and want them to pick either xmas or thanksgiving for next year. Since they already had thanksgiving this year, you'll be spending xmas with your relatives. this is what most people do
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 11:18 AM FlagIt is too late to tell them they can't come for Christmas BUT you can tell them when they are invited to arrive, let's say the 23rd or 24th AND make plans to go away somewhere with the kids for a day or two on the morning of the 26th and you can all leave your house at the same time. DH can make those plans via email. During their visit, I would let them then know that next year they are invited for just one holiday. I would ask them again over the summer which they have chosen and make plans to be away for the other immediately. GL.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 04:57 PM FlagI think you need to address the core issue here, which is the lack of boundaries when they visit. I think telling them that you're essentially canceling their Christmas is too much (I know you didn't promise yet but you know they're expecting it or you wouldn't be UBing about it), but I think your dh needs to firmly but politely tell them that they can come for two days and THAT'S IT. It seems like the real problem is their assumption that they're invited for an indefinite period of time.
[ Reply | More ]12.12.11, 05:36 PM FlagLet me start by saying that I am not one of those mothers where everything and anything is all about and for the children. That said, are your children old enough to notice if their grandparents are there or not? If they are, don't deprive them of having an extended family at holiday time, it's important. As one who watched other families have grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. over for the holidays... we did not (my dad didn't talk to his parents, mother barely spoke to her brother, etc.) and it always filled me with a sense of sadness. While you may have just seen them at Thanksgiving... it does not hold a candle to the memories of Christmas for children.
[ Reply | More ]12.14.11, 11:56 AM Flag
[+] What flavor birthday cake did you have for DB's first birthday? I am so clueless and ... 8 replies
Talk : : December 11, 2011
What flavor birthday cake did you have for DB's first birthday? I am so clueless and figuring out if I will bake or buy something, not sure whether I should just go with cupcakes (we're celebrating in our apartment with both sets of grandparents).
8 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.11.11, 06:34 PM Flag ]
[+] My brother is such a dick! I mentioned that I was thinking of buying our parents tick... 8 replies
- I had an ex-boyfriend (a serious one) whose mom sometimes ripped off my gifts. She'd ask what I was getting for people (his grandparents, her DH, ex-bf) and then SHE'D buy them as gifts from her. I used to get mad, but she was so clueless I think she didn't realize she was doing it. After a few rounds of that, I'd always just say, "not sure...
Talk : : December 11, 2011
My brother is such a dick! I mentioned that I was thinking of buying our parents tickets for a show that they've been dying to see. I emailed him today asking if he wanted to go halfsies on me for the tickets. He said, "Oh, I already bought them." WTF? That was my present!
8 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.11.11, 04:08 PM Flag ]-
I had an ex-boyfriend (a serious one) whose mom sometimes ripped off my gifts. She'd ask what I was getting for people (his grandparents, her DH, ex-bf) and then SHE'D buy them as gifts from her. I used to get mad, but she was so clueless I think she didn't realize she was doing it. After a few rounds of that, I'd always just say, "not sure yet."
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 06:08 PM Flag
[+] Poll: Ages of DCs; college savings; do you have a big screen TV?; iPhones? iPad? 25 replies
- 2, about $20k (mostly from grandparents and great-grandparents...
Talk : : December 11, 2011
Poll: Ages of DCs; college savings; do you have a big screen TV?; iPhones? iPad?
25 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.11.11, 09:30 AM Flag ]LOL, could you be any more obvious about setting people up for you to flame them
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:33 AM FlagOP: not going to flame anyone - just curious. Lots of discussion about paying for college lately - just curious about people's priorities. I have several flat screens, iPhones, iPad, & a Kindle Fire. We're very fortunate to have significant savings and rarely spend money on ourselves. We've had a good year and treated ourselves to some toys. Not judging anyone - just curious.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:49 AM Flag
One 20 month old, college savings $5000, two 36" TVs, each have iPhone or Droid, don't see the point of an opacity or we would have one. This poll wont be interesting on UB because most people are wealthy, IMO.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:35 AM Flag17 and 21. $200,000 (have cashed flowed DS college, so he will have $$ for grad school, if needed), no, no, no. And for the last 25 years, we have saved for retirement and college, and resisted spending on "things." Spend on vacas, camps, educational activities.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:42 AM Flag2, about $20k (mostly from grandparents and great-grandparents...so far, we've asked for college savings $ for b-days and for Hanukkah), have a 40" TV (and a 32" TV), no iPhone (I have a BlackBerry, though lately I've had iPhone envy - and DH has an old flip phone!), no iPad (but I really want one!).
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:52 AM Flag5,6,9,11--hell yes to the big screen and thinking about purchasing another! iphones, no. ipad, no. College savings: zilch. I received a full scholarship and my husband a large grant/fellowship--both as a result of our hard work & grades. If they want to attend college they will work their butts off in high school. If they don't have the grades to muster up a decent aid package at a state school at the least, then vocational school it is for them. Paying for college is not a parenting requirement. Helping them prepare emotionally and academically for it so they can pay for it themselves, is.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 10:50 AM Flag2 and almost born; $0 (but dh works at a university so they'll go there); no; no
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 10:59 AM Flag-
They can choose leaving college with no loans and having the freedom of being debt free or they can saddle themselves with a lifetime of debt. Which would you choose? And it's a good school and I'm confident that they'll get in. If they can't get in, our state schools are good. Of course, we're 15 years away from this, but we're doing our part to pay for college. Not bad for middle class people who make just slightly more than one year of college costs.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 11:42 AM Flag
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5,2,2, gestating; $28k. No TV; Android phones; laptop computers (used for work), but not iPad. We've stopped putting money into college funds for now - our plan is to get our mortgage paid off before the kids start college (and possibly downsize houses) so that we can use money toward their tuition rather than our housing.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 01:11 PM Flag
[+] How much do people typically spend on Xmas presents per child? I always feel like I s... 18 replies
- $80 per child this year, and this is from us and Santa. Grandparents and aunts and uncles send us so many presents for the kids, I see no point in spending extra...
Talk : : December 10, 2011
How much do people typically spend on Xmas presents per child? I always feel like I spend too much but can't seem to stop myself. We never got much for Xmas growing up so I go a little overboard I think.
18 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.10.11, 06:18 PM Flag ]-
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$80 per child this year, and this is from us and Santa. Grandparents and aunts and uncles send us so many presents for the kids, I see no point in spending extra
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 06:58 PM FlagProbably $400+. Maybe $500. Not sure. I can't help it. The "big gift", like a play kitchen (this year the refrigerator to her play kitchen), is usually over $100, and then there are usually some smaller Santa items (this year, some dolly items like a dolly car seat), plus stocking stuffers (which REALLY add up), and then a few other things from us (small toys like a magnetic paper doll and a puzzle or two, an ornament, etc.) and some clothes (Xmas pjs, new jacket) and the annual Xmas book or 2.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 08:03 PM Flag
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[+] What do I have to do to get my DCs friends to call me Mrs. Jones? I don't like them c... 50 replies
- about is getting my kids to call adults by Mr. or Mrs. It's the way I was raised and it makes me cringe when MIL introduces her friends to dcs by first name and then dc's adopt that. I never called parents' or grandparents' friends by first names BUT it's a delicate thing to insist in certain instances because it's also not worth offending people. I walk a tightrope on this issue, telling dc's to address by Mr. and Mrs. unless the person introduces as first name...
Talk : : December 10, 2011
What do I have to do to get my DCs friends to call me Mrs. Jones? I don't like them calling me by my first name.
50 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.10.11, 09:25 AM Flag ]-
np That's a little awkward. I think it's better to say something to YOUR kid like "Mrs. Anderson is hosting your playdate today; isn't that nice?!" Done in front of the mom whose kid is calling you by first name.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:44 AM Flagmeh. i'm pretty direct, esp when helping another kid (or my own) understand manners.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:46 AM Flag-
nnp. Rude?? To ask a child to call you Mrs. Jones? When I was a kid we just knew to say Mrs. Jones as a default. Also, you could absolutely tell which parents wanted Mr and Mrs and which wanted first names. Kids today don't care, because their parents don't teach them. IMO, THAT is rude. And I'm only 27.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 10:26 AM Flagnnp I would much rather she correct my kid with her preference than make a show of her kid calling me Mrs, which is NOT *my* preference. Although it is a matter of preference, not manners, for this generation and even the last (there was one parent growing up who insisted on Mr).
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 12:43 PM Flag
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Don't think that will work - the other mom will just say, "please call me Jill!" And not likely take the hint that you want to be called Mrs. Jones. If you want to be called Mrs. Jones, you're going to have to say so. You can't control the way other people feel about that - they're probably not going to like it, though.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 11:02 AM Flag
Either this...or talk to parents. "I know it's a bit old fashioned, but I prefer to be Mrs. Jones to Sissy's friends." If you say it with a smile, it should work. If you are saying it directly to the kids, you can opt to leave out the smile...perhaps they will be too intimidated to even think of you as Mary. Another thought...if your dc are old enough (at 5 or 6), you may instruct them. They can introduce their little pals to you, "Sally, this is my mama, Mrs. Jones." I am Mrs. Smith even to my godchildren because all of my dc's friends & classmates know me as Mrs. Smith...even though they know other parents as Cheryl and Rick, etc. Also helps if you get other parents on board with the formal introductions. If you are the only Mrs. Jones in a sea of Carols and Jims, it will be a bit harder, but as I've said, still doable! And I do like the southern approach too--"Miss Mary", but that is one that is also favored by a lot of daycares, which may or may not be a good thing. Also...if other parents say, "call me Candy!" You must choose ahead of time whether to instruct dc to make Candy comfortable and acquiesce to her request or to more primly say, "Oh, no Miss Cane! We couldn't do that!"
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:23 PM Flag
Why does it bother you? It's 2011; society is less formal now.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:49 AM Flagnp "Society" needs to get its act together, imo. I'm all for progress, but for some reason people think anything goes--and that's not right
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:53 AM FlagThings change. Do you address your co-workers formally? Did you ask your boss permission to use their first name in the office. Do you address your elders using Sir or Ma'am? I have no problem with OP wanting be addressed as Mrs. Huxatable, but to say a kid addressing an adult by their first name means it's the end of the world as we know it is lunacy.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 10:41 AM Flag
you simply have to ask. when kids say "mrs. so and so" I say "call me --" (my first name) and it works perfectly.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 09:55 AM Flag-
You'll have to compromise as they have already gotten into the habit. Just say.... "Call me Miss Carolyn from now on." That will go down smoother than "Mrs. Brady." I don't have a problem with my d
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 10:33 AM FlagThis Miss/Mr + first name seems to be really common, at least in the South. Moved here and it seems like this is what I always am hearing. Even in the "classes" I take with my 18month old the instructors always introduce themselves as Miss Louise etc. Don't think I ever heard this before moving here
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 11:33 AM Flag
Good manners are not valued up north. The only place where children are routinely taught to address adults formally is in the South and in Texas.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 10:41 AM FlagI hear what you're saying, but honestly, I'd leave it if it's already been going on. What I'm more concerned about is getting my kids to call adults by Mr. or Mrs. It's the way I was raised and it makes me cringe when MIL introduces her friends to dcs by first name and then dc's adopt that. I never called parents' or grandparents' friends by first names BUT it's a delicate thing to insist in certain instances because it's also not worth offending people. I walk a tightrope on this issue, telling dc's to address by Mr. and Mrs. unless the person introduces as first name. Times, unfortunately, are changing. sigh.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 11:50 AM FlagI grew up in the 70s and 80s and always called my parents' friends by their first names. Times changed quite a while ago.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 01:30 PM Flagwell if your MIL introduces people in that manner then that is the way these people want to be addressed I assume. The best is to teach your children to call people by what they prefer - be it mr, mrs or first names. Some of us do not like the formality of mr or mrs and find it dated and uncomfortable. Others prefer mr and mrs. If kids are told just one name - be it either way - then they should be able to follow that rule. It gets more confusing to give them 2 names to remember for each person.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 01:32 PM Flag
Everything in our society is less formal than it used to be. This is no more detrimental a trend than any of the rest. If you want them to call you by your last name you need to ask them to call you by your last name. I've taught my kids to use last names unless instructed otherwise, but think it's stuffy and weird when people actually insist on being Mrs. X.
[ Reply | More ]12.10.11, 02:36 PM FlagDO these children have telepathy? You need to tell them - everyone deserves to be addressed by the name they choose. They will not know if you don't tell them. Don't take it so personally, they are not trying to be overly familiar or insult you. They are just doing what they are used to doing. Also don't be surprised if they have to be reminded, they will probably forget.
[ Reply | More ]12.11.11, 09:52 AM Flag
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[+] I've heard the term "fundraising" to help adopt. what is this? we want to adopt but... 19 replies
- College is really expensive, too, but middle class people don't ask their friends to pay for their children's educations. You can ask potential grandparents, *maybe* unmarried aunts and uncles or a very very rich sibling, but that's it....
Talk : : December 09, 2011
I've heard the term "fundraising" to help adopt. what is this? we want to adopt but it's crazy expensive. could someone explain.
19 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.09.11, 05:40 AM Flag ]One of my facebook "friends" had a drive on facebook where friends and friends of friends etc. were asked to donate.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:05 AM FlagIsn't this tacky? Or no? It does suck that adoption is so expensive...
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:06 AM FlagI think it can be appropriate if you handle it the right way. There are plenty of people with money who would love to support someone looking to adopt. Adoption is an awesome thing, and I'm very glad to support a friend in raising the necessary funds. Setting up a fund people can donate to is fine. Directly soliciting individual friends on FB is a pushy. One of my friends set up some webpage where people could donate, she explained their story and hopes for adoption, etc. There was a link to it on her FB, but she wasn't contacting people and asking them for donations. A hazy line, I suppose but I thought what she did was reasonable considering the cause.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:40 AM Flag
Be careful with this. We adopted from China so saw some of this going on when we went through the process. It's very controversial as some older adoptees whose parents had fundraisers now feel that they were charity cases and are to be pitied. It is expensive but in our case we did not have to pay all of the fees at once so that helps.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:45 AM FlagCollege is really expensive, too, but middle class people don't ask their friends to pay for their children's educations. You can ask potential grandparents, *maybe* unmarried aunts and uncles or a very very rich sibling, but that's it.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:46 AM FlagWhat a nasty thing to say. How many of the world's orphans have you given a home to? Maybe we should just let them rot in orphanages because people like you don't want to be troubled to be part of the solution.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:10 AM FlagIf people really wanted to help the world's orphans, they would donate a fraction of the money it takes to adopt. That would allow the children to be cared for by their genetic family. I'm not opposed to international adoption, but believe that 99% of the time it is motivated by the very real desire for adults to have children (usually healthy infants) rather than 'save' orphans. Having kids, our own genetic kids and adopted kids, is largely motivated by selfish desires. We shouldn't ask strangers to subsidize it.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:21 AM FlagSure, it would be great to support the world's villages in such a way that kids could stay with their families and international adoption would only be a last resort, but you know what? The children who are currently available for adoption are already at last resort. They need families now and cannot wait for charities and community development programs to fix the obstacles preventing them from living with their birth families. We shouldn't make them sit in orphanages for the years that it would take to bolster a country's economy. We should support anyone who is ready to provide a home for them and at the same time work on longer term aid and development strategies. A lot of adoptive families host fundraisers before and after their adoption so that they can return to their child's community and give donations or construct a well, etc. And you think we shouldn't ask strangers to subsidize providing families for them?? Then maybe we shouldn't subsidize your child's public school. Sometimes it's nice when the haves share with others. Adoption fundraisers are entirely optional, so feel free to keep your spoil sport self at home.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:40 AM FlagWe obviously disagree. You seem unaware of the rampant abuse in international adoption. Many 'orphanages' in poor countries are more akin to boarding schools, where families leave their children expecting to reclaim them when they are financially able. Surely, you've heard of the US ban on adoptions from several countries, including Guatemala, due to widespread coercion and baby brokering. I do believe society should support children and families. But spending $50-100K to adopt a healthy infant from a picturesque country is not a public service, it's a private, and very loving gesture. I would be happy to support families who accept hard-to-place older and disabled children. But guess what -- it's cheaper to adopt those kids! Seems like adoption is a market transaction after all.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:48 AM FlagYes, I am completely aware of these issues and I have tried to counsel families away from asking for a healthy infant because I know that the high demand for those infants is a huge factor in corruption in international adoptions. No need to explain the situation to me. I also hugely support families going the special needs and older child route and I think it's terrible when families won't even look at those lists. Even then, there are costs involved in adoption and IMO the families deserve the support. A df is doing a fundraiser for a sever SN child who is coming home soon, but the family still has to pay thousands for the adoption. If you don't want to participate in a fundraiser, then don't. But don't knock all adoption fundraisers or say that the parents aren't allowed to ask for support.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 08:09 AM FlagHey, it's a free country and people can ask for whatever they want. But if you're asking for charity for your own family -- which is what OP is proposing -- you'd better be aware that people will notice in the future if you buy a nice car, take a week's vacation in Puerto Rico, etc. If you ask people to subsidize you, you are opening yourself to their scrutiny. If you're adopting a severely disabled child, you will certainly pass such scrutiny. If you're adopting a child who will qualify as 'diversity' and skip off to private school wearing designer clothes, people will resent having given you money.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 08:16 AM Flag
Lots of families are starting to do this. Spend some time in the forums at adoption.com and also read adoption blogs. You'll find lots of info that way. Also this blog has info on fundraising tips and grants that are available: http://fiveofmyown.blogspot.com/2011/11/affording-adoption.html and http://fiveofmyown.blogspot.com/2011/11/adoption-grants.html
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:13 AM Flag-
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[+] I've been engaged for 12 months now and getting married in July. There have been some... 132 replies
- Out out out. Your kids will be considered Jewish, their grandparents are likely to find that offensive. Lovely....
Talk : : December 08, 2011
I've been engaged for 12 months now and getting married in July. There have been some weird things that have occurred with my fiance's family and wondering what people think. For starters, I am Jewish but not religious. My fiance's family is Catholic. I was told that we would have a Catholic wedding (mass, everything) and nothing Jewish, since my fiance's family finds it offensive. I was ok with that for a while, but now it feels strange. I told my fiance that I was thinking of giving up my biglaw job and going to a smaller firm. The next weekend, I am getting a lecture from my fiance's family regarding my career. Third, we have to spend every holiday with my fiance's family. Fourth, my fiance never consulted with me regarding job placement. It was announced in front of the entire family. I felt that I should have been the first to know. Fifth, I wrote a family story regarding my sister on the wedding website and my future MIL told me that it was inappropriate and had it removed. Is this much compromise normal? I am starting to feel very scared.
132 replies [ Reply | Watch | More12.08.11, 08:56 PM Flag ]i would tell fiance that you need to have serious talk and are putting off the wedding until some things get worked out. Things will only get worse if you let them, him take control of your life. I have never heard of anything so disresptectful, telling you you cannot honor your religion at your wedding???
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 08:59 PM FlagYes, I brought this up and the "family" needed to have a talk about it. The next time we visited them (we stay with them every weekend even though it's an hour drive from the city) and they decided that we could have a small ceremony of signing the ketubah the day following the wedding.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:00 PM FlagI would not agree to this, and your to be dh should not either, this is YOUR and HIS wedding, not theirs.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:02 PM FlagWell, that's the only way it works out since our wedding is on a Saturday and we can't do it on Friday or Saturday due to religious law.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:03 PM Flagif that was the real issue, then you would do it the thursday before the wedding. but no, they will not allow that because that would mean the jewish ceremony took precedence. correct?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:11 PM Flag
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Out out out. Your kids will be considered Jewish, their grandparents are likely to find that offensive. Lovely.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:07 PM FlagNp: Why would you even consider marrying him? He's doesnt want to have his own life, family. He's looking for someone to adopt into his parents family. What's wrong with you? I mean, is he the first guy you dated after losing a lot of weight or something? Do you think you're on some self-hating or revenge against parents trip? Pull yourself together OP & bail. Don't choose this nomsense.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:09 PM Flag-
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If I were you I would be a bit concerned. Look at each one of the items you just listed, and think of how it may play out in the long run. Do you want to consign yourself to never going to your family for a holiday? Never? Not even when you have dc that your family will want to see? I realize you are not religious now, and don't care too much about the wedding ceremony, but go back to the word "offensive" - do you want to marry into a family that finds your traditions offensive? What would happen if you wanted to some sort of Jewish tradition to welcome a dc into the family - even something benign like a naming ceremony? Would they find that offensive as well. I don't want to tell you things that will cause you to make rash decisions about something that you have obviously thought through many times. But I do think it is a good idea to sit down with your fiance and discuss each and every point you just told us. Please, do this for yourself.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:02 PM FlagYes, I have thought of that and I feel that a lot of this is my fault. I am not religious at all and have never made it a priority. I didn't see anything wrong with having a Catholic wedding since his family is very religious, but I also didn't anticipate how involved his family was going to be in our lives. It's crazy! His father even replaced my car with a BMW because he was embarrassed of what I was driving. It's hard to know if they are not just being super familial or controlling.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:05 PM Flagperhaps it is just "familialness" to an extreme - but that basically borders on controlling now, doesn't it? please talk to your fiance. about each and every thing you said. discuss specifically how things will occur in the future - not just now
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:08 PM Flag-
I've tried discussing it but he's very sensitive about his family. They are very close knit and anything said against them is seen as a huge insult. They are his life. I even go to their tailor now because they insisted that he's the best. It's crazy how super involved they are, but at the same time, they have the money so it's not like my life has taken a downgrade, it's been improved in a lot of ways.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:12 PM Flagthis is old-school pop psych, but can you frame the discussion using "I" statements instead if "you" statements? like, "I think that when we have dc, I'd like to have a Jewish naming ceremony. What do you/your fam think of that?" Or, "I think I'd like to sign the ketubah before the Catholic ceremony. Lets do that." Perhaps he'd be less defensive that way. Also - the money thing - that's CONTROLLING
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:14 PM Flag
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Its standard to find you MIL intrusive, but its troubling when inlaw family takes over things that should be decided by you and fiance, e.g. wedding. Given that you are already objecting to that loss of control across a number of issues, I'd say that you need a solution. Is fiance that much under their control? Who says that you have to spend every holiday with them? If you have any attachment to Judiasm or any atttachment your family which is attached to Judiaism then 'no Judiasm at the wedding because inlaws find it offensive' is a nonstarter.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:03 PM FlagHe is completely under their control. They are wealthy and bought his swank condo in the city. He keeps a BMW in the city, even though he only drives it once a month. They even have a rule that he's not allowed to have overnight guests at his place and it's rumored that the doorman keeps an eye on him. I never stayed the night at his place as a result.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:10 PM FlagOkay, either this is fake, or you are the most moronic woman alive. If this is real, call off the wedding, break up with the man-child, and go find someone else.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 05:31 AM FlagI'm not fake! His family is just very conservative and close-knit. They are very proud of being successful and I know that's why they were so upset when I mentioned to my fiance that I wanted to move on to a smaller firm. I am sick of this biglaw shit. I feel like crying every Sunday. His father told me that he would throw some business my way so that I could make partner quicker. Once I make partner, they said that I could reevaluate whether or not I want to stay. How is making partner going to make my life better? I don't know, but at the same time, I have a lot of pressure on me from my family to be successful as well. I know if I made partner, that would make them very happy.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:03 AM Flag
It's just me, but I would find all of this unacceptable. Even if your not religious, can you really kneel in front of a,statue and a priest? Also, I thought you kind of had to be Catholic to have a priest marry you. Wedding aside, making you pick his family for everything is cruel. Its like joining a cult. Do you have kids with this man? How is his family going to be then?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:04 PM FlagWe have been going to this Catholic marriage counseling thing every other weekend for the past few months. It's part of our pre-wedding requirements in order to be married by a Catholic priest. We don't have children, but his father bought me a new car.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:07 PM FlagYou've got to be freaking kidding me. A car?! So what? You owe him? This guy and his family are either killing your spirit, or you need to grow a pair. I still don't understand how a priest would agree to marry you in the first place. These people, including their son sound awful. You must in your heart know its true, otherwise you wouldn't be asking.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:14 PM Flag
Major red flags here. The fact that your fiance is letting his family have so much control and say in his life - especially at your expense - is a very bad sign. How long did you guys date before you got engaged and how old are you?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:06 PM FlagI am 30. We dated throughout college and I broke up with him because he might have cheated on me. Nothing certain, just a friend spotted him with another girl at a bar. We started dating again 3 years ago.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:08 PM Flag-
just saw your post. 30 is too old to be this controlled by your ILs-to-be. and too old to have a big elaborate wedding IMO. tell your fiancรฉ how this all makes you feel, and tell him to grow up and stand up for you.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:12 PM FlagNot to hijack this comment, but 30 IS TOO OLD TO HAVE A BIG ELABORATE WEDDING??!!! What are we, in 1950? Where 30 is old maid territory?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:14 PM Flagno, 30 means you should have enough god damned sense to not participate in spending $70,000 on flowers, custom-printed name tags, and all the bullshit frippery that under-30s bankrupt themselves or indent themselves to parents or ILs for that special day. I would think that being 30 means you are wise enough not to spend multiple tens of thousands on a single event or to go all bridezilla about custom fabric for seat covers and shit.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:20 PM FlagSpending a lot on a wedding does not mean that you have gone Bridezilla. I don't see anything wrong with people spending tens of thousands of dollars on a wedding. I don't view a wedding budget as an indicator of intelligence. That's ridiculous.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:23 PM Flagit is such an outlandish waste of money, particularly when you're old enough to have a better idea what to do with it (e.g. down payment). or, if you're not paying for it yourself, you end up having your parents' or your ILs' version of a wedding ceremony forced down your throat.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:29 PM Flag
You just lost all legitimacy when you stated that 30 is too old for an elaborate wedding. Are you kidding?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:20 PM Flagas I said above, having a big elaborate wedding is a sign of immaturity. I can see that I have offended the bridezilla crowd.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:23 PM FlagI was never a bridezilla and I'm not myopic. I understand that there are a plethora of reasons as to why a couple would choose to have a large wedding. Strange to think that people view them as a sign of immaturity. Shows that they have a limited worldview and/or are jealous.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:27 PM Flag
I would think very hard about your relationship with your fiance and his relationship with his family, and how much he values you versus his family. In my experience, these issues only get worse, especially if you do get married and decide to have children. I don't think I could marry someone who would be so disrespectful of my views and my family.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 09:17 PM FlagOK OP: You are really the catholic one and HE and the family is jewish right? But you wanted advise that was not biased toward one religion or the other?
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 10:04 PM FlagI am Catholic. My advice to you is run, run far away from the crazy, controlling family and your borderline racist fiancรฉ. I have plenty of married friends where one spouse is Catholic and the other is Jewish. They have come up with different ways of celebrating their faith (kids are Jewish, kids are Jewish but not circumcised, kids are secular, kids observe religious traditions of both extended families .... ) .... the choices are endless, but the point is they are choices not edicts from afar. Marriage is about respect, negotiation and communication. It doesn't sound like you have that with this man. I would postpone the wedding until you can determine if that will be possible. Don't him or his family disrespect you and your heritage, you deserve better. Most importantly, if you feel scared, go with your gut.
[ Reply | More ]12.08.11, 11:01 PM FlagI totally understand what you are saying. I feel that in some way a lot of this is my fault in the sense that I am not religious at all. My mother isn't Jewish by birth, she was also Catholic, but underwent conversion when she married my father. We even used to meet family on Christmas and exchange presents that day since everyone had it off. I didn't even become bat mitzvah. So, I think this is why he feels it's ok to just steamroll over the Jewish thing.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:15 AM Flag^^ Catholic above again. He isn't steamrolling over some random "Jewish thing", he is steamrolling over you. It doesn't matter if you have been particularly observant up until this point, what matters is what you want and what you think is a significant way to mark the celebration of your wedding vows. If that means signing the ketubeh after a Catholic wedding, there is no rational objection to that other than flat out racism. Your wishes as the bride should absolutely be part of your wedding. I honestly cannot think of any Catholic priests I have ever met who would find that objectionable in a blended family.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 11:56 AM Flag
Run away as fast as you can. Some of this seems weird to you? I'd say all of this is weird. I have friends who've married into controlling families. They are Catholics too (both partners too--not sure if this really is relevant) and the FIL is so nutty--calls all the times, wants all the details--overly involved past any "loving family" into scary territory. Think twice what you're getting into. It gets worse as time goes on and kids are a factor. Didn't you have to have counselling to marry in the Catholic faith? I don'think it's allowed unless you convert or sign papers.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 12:32 AM FlagOH, Sweetie. This is horrible. I think you need a major time out, hit the pause button and lay down the law. MIL and family will be running (and ruining) your life from the moment you say "I do" - and DH seems to need some cojones, as another posted said. How old are you guys? This sounds like the kind of thing that happens with younger couples. So sorry. Major, major red flags.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 03:19 AM FlagDH's coworker was at her own wedding reception. MIL came over and laid down the law. Told her (the wife) how things would be working going forward. New wife listened. Got up. Left the reception. Went back to work on Monday. And filed for an anullment. She is now happily married (to someone else) with a lovely little family. Cut your losses, hun.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 03:19 AM FlagEven absent the religious issue, if you were making a sincere conversion before you met this guy, I'd tell you to run. This guy is not cut out to be a good dh. It is not too late to find the love of your life, and if you go through with this, you will regret it. Calling it off looks like an enormous mess, but staying is a much bigger mess.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 04:12 AM FlagWhere's your family? Friends? I'm RC and if someone I cared about was getting ready to marry into this family, I'd risk our relationship to try and straighten her out. This family may mean well, and there are reasons they're all enmeshed like this. It works for them. If you join them you will suffer.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 04:21 AM FlagMy friends have been very reserved with their comments. Last weekend, someone called him a dick due to an incident at his grandmother's house. They are keeping quiet on the issue if they have strong reservations.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:22 AM FlagDo they know how bad it is or only hat they see w their own eyes? Is there anyone who actually knows everything you posted here? Not trying to beat you up on this, but I think we all see that you need a wakeup call. Spend the holidays with your family this year if for no better reason than this will be the last one before you are married. Hopefully, the peace and distance will give you the strength to back out
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 10:41 AM FlagI only recently told them about it and they were silent. One of them rolled her eyes and said, "You need to think about this and be happy. My sister got divorced after 11mo of marriage because she didn't even want to go through with the wedding." They didn't say anything specific because I think they are afraid of insulting me.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 12:14 PM Flag
I have a lovely MIL and FIL. They are super sweet. My family is crazy and we don't see them. Every holiday we spend it with my DH family. It gets old very quickly. I LIKE these people. Once we had a baby, our schedule no longer belong to us. My husband pulls the "Grandma and Grandpa want to see their grandchild." card. It is very hard to argue against. Again, I like these people and I still want to pull my hair out sometimes. Its going to be a million times worse with you. Do you really want your DH families "advice" on how to raise your child. Think long and hard about this. Either you put your foot down and put it down hard, starting with the wedding or run away as fast as possible.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 05:36 AM FlagThere is no way I would marry someone with such an awful family. It's only going to get worse after you're married, especially if you have kids. Frankly, I don't think a discussion is going to cut it at this point - a leopard doesn't change its spots. I would call it off and find someone normal.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 05:44 AM FlagEven if religion were not an issue, you have bid problems. You spend every holiday and lots of weekends with his family? They have a say on your career and what type of car you drive? Youe future DH needws their approval for basic life decisions? WHY ARE YOU STILL ENGAGED? Do you think any of this will change when you are married?
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 05:52 AM Flagi believe boundaries and expections are set while dating before you are married. lots of holidays coming up, spend them with your family and see how he reacts...yes, this is a test! Better to test now, than just after married!
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 06:58 AM FlagI've tried, but he has a much larger family than I do and my family lives in FL. We live in Manhattan, his family is in LI. So, it's a much bigger deal for us to fly down to FL to see my small family, which only includes my parents. I have one sibling in CA. He says that we MUST visit his family because his grandmother is old and everyone expects it, it would be rude not to go.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:25 AM FlagNP: I'm a newlywed, and prior to marriage my in-laws were very nice. After marriage, they came to visit *every weekend*. It is possible to start a healthy marriage with you in-laws around every weekend, which is basically the ony time you have to relax and bond with your new husband. My MIL didn't think they were extra trouble, but I always needed to be "on", there was alll the extra laundry from the guest bedroom sheets, and we'd have a power struggle over who got to cook in the kitchen. It may seem petty, but I get to cook in my kitchen. She never lets me touch anything in her kitchen, and when she fought with me to cook for her "boys" (FIL and DH) in DH's and my kitchen, I got really upset. She made me feel like a guest in my own home. I grew to resent DH for not setting boundaries with her. Don't take their money; they are velvet handcuffs. Trust me, you don't want the conditions the money comes with. If your fiance isn't willing to spend time with you and you alone, this marriage isn't going to work. You'll never be a team.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 10:17 AM Flag
Agree w everyone so far. Get it now. You have pretty much spent your 20s w this man -- unless you had a meaningful relationship in between and it's possible that you are a little scared to be alone so are putting on blinders. Every single one of your 5 points is a big red flag in and of itself. Get out right now. You are only 30 and you have a good career. If you stay longer or (much worse) actually go through w this, you will win up feeling alone and isolated and also worried that you are "too old" to find someone new. It won't be true then either but that will be another reason to stay too long. Realize too that fiance is the problem here, not the ILs. They are awful but he is actually encouraging all of this - by not objecti and uou say he even supports them!
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:05 AM FlagI had plenty of relationships other than this guy. We most definitely did not spend all of our 20s together.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:20 AM FlagGreat. I'm glad that you had serious enough relationships bat you aren't sticking it out in part bc he has been your only truly serious boyfriend. All of the rest that I and everyone else have said still stands. We don't know you so have nothing to gain but stayig just seems like recipe for lifelong ungappiness
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 09:27 AM Flag
It will only get worse when you get married. When I was dating my DH there were a few things that I found odd and nothing this extreme. It only gets worse. It's true that you really do marry their family. My inlaws drive me nuts, but they are not controlling and DH stands up for me. DH-to-be needs to stick up for you and not be so easily controlled by his family. If he can't do that, I would get out ASAP.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 07:15 AM FlagCouldn't agree more, OP, you need to leave. He is unapologetic in putting his family before on every aspect of your lives already. When you have kids, it will only get worse, though I'm actually hard pressed to see how it could get much worse. BTW, you are never too old to have an elaborate first wedding. At some point, you may be too old to have your parents foot the entire bill but that's another story and totally irrelevant here
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 08:26 AM FlagWow. This is terrible. Your fiance has a major boundary issue. He doesn't seem to understand what is due to his relationship with you, and cannot recognise when family involvement is inappropriate. It sounds like he may lack his own individual identity, and was raised to feel that this is normal. But it means you can't really know him or trust him completely. I would back away from this one, slowly.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 11:06 AM FlagOP, please tell us what happened; and what you decided to do. I hope you did have a talk with your fiance frankly, because this really is important. When DH and I met, this was 12 yrs ago, his parents were really sweet to me and kept to themselves. I didn't have a chance to find out if DH would stand up to them, I knew they were very close, but I just didn't know. Over the years I found out that DH would absolutely put his family's happiness in front of mine. Basically what they thought was much more important than what I felt. We are different cultures, but I am quite liberal. They translated this to mean you don't have culture, so its up to us to educate you about ours. It got so much worse after DC. Now 10yrs of marriage later, I am estranged from my in-laws. Don't talk to them, don't see them. While DH keeps them involved with DC and himself, but understands now that he screwed up many times early on and this is how it will be now. If we didn't have DC, we would be spitsville. With red flags like you have, you should at least be wiling to have the conversation.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 11:26 AM FlagTo OP: this is a cautionary tale but seems like it sort of worked out for the OR (meaning they are still married) despite what I'm sure was a lot of misery. Don't assume it will even work out this well.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 11:30 AM Flagor- it worked because DH doesn't think he can live without me, and is willing to live with this compromise that makes him very sad and his family furious. But he is unwilling and unable to set proper boundaries for them, and on some level he knows and accepts that.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 11:55 AM Flag
Why do you have to spend every holiday with your fiance's family? Why not just Christmas and Easter (assumedly 2 big holidays for them) and spend Thanksgiving and NYE(or some other visit) visiting your family in Florida? Unless your fiance and his family realize he is starting a new family now with other obligations in addition to them, and that they cannot hog all of his time, then your marriage will be a miserable and unbalanced one.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 12:35 PM FlagThis post can't be real. Run, OP! Run quick. Make like Flo Jo and get the hell away from the dickless fiance and his douche bag family. I WISH a future-MIL would try to square up on me about my wedding, my job, my family, and my religion. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. OP, no good is going to come from this union. Your DH already showed himself to be disrespectful towards what makes you, well you. Though being Jewish isn't the entire you and you are made of many aspects, your DH needs to respect ALL of you. If he can't then you need to drop him like third period french.
[ Reply | More ]12.09.11, 04:32 PM Flag
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