Concerned Mom:

I am so very sorry about your miscarriage.  I did not see your post yesterday, but I’m guessing this is not your first? 

Your doctor, pardon me, is not worth the time or money.  You have to find another doctor. 

Where are you in the country?  There are NaPro docs all over and many of them accept multiple insurances.  I traveled from Virginia to Pennsylvania and my insurance was accepted with no problem.  I only had to travel twice to see this doctor, everything else was done via phone, fax, and email.  If their office won’t accept your insurance, I would call and beg for mercy.  Are you anywhere near Washington DC?  The Tepeyac Family Center works on a sliding scale for charges and while they are not NaPro doctors, they are well familiar with a lot of the NaPro work and they might be able to help you.  Your current doctor isn’t helping you!!!  Anything is better!

Continuing to lose your babies is not acceptable.  I would guess that you have some big hormonal issues, possibly even endometriosis, that are preventing you from being able to conceive and carry a child.  Fixing these problems at 23 will be much easier than fixing them at 33 or 43, plus it will spare you the heartache of miscarriages. 

The fact that your doctor won’t even monitor progesterone is a huge red flag for me.  Progesterone is one of the easiest things to catch and supplement, starting from the moment you get a positive pregnancy test.  Are there any reproductive endocrinologists in your area?  An RE would at least do a miscarriage panel of testing on you.  You may indeed have chromosomal issues, like Factor V Leiden or MTHFR that might always make you miscarry unless treated - and the treatment can be something as simple as a baby aspirin a day. 

Sorry, I am getting ahead of myself because this gets me so worked up.  The bottom line is that your doctor sees an early miscarriage as no big deal, just a messed up egg.  But to you - this is your baby!  And she needs to treat this as though it is the most important thing in the world because to you - it is!! 

Hugs to you - I truly hope you can get some answers.  And may God help you through this pain and grant you peace!

God bless you in your suffering! You have my prayers today. I’ve been complaining a lot about recovering from a c-section, and your post reminded me to be joyful and grateful. I’ll offer up my complaints for you today.

Jennifer is right: you need a new doctor. If you live new New York City, you could try the new Gianna health center for women, which is an all-Catholic obgyn practice. I don’t know if they take insurance or what their rates are, but they might be worth a call.

If you aren’t near anything like that, try another OB on your insurance. Pray to the Holy Spirit to help you find the right one, then go through your insurance’s list of doctors and start calling them. It also may be worth your while to go to a reproductive endocrinologist. Many of them make their money doing IVF, sadly, but no one knows female hormones better. In fact, did you know that women prepping for IVF have to keep sympto-thermal charts? RE’s take charting seriously, unlike a lot of OBs, and they will certainly be willing to test your progesterone levels.

I was diagnosed with endometriosis on my 25th birthday, but I’ve probably had it since adolescence. An ER doctor finally made the correct diagnosis, and he sent me to an RE. I was very fortunate that though endo was causing tremendous pain, it had not yet affected my fertility. The RE thought it was great that we were an NFP couple, and he was eager to read our charts. He recommended some alternative treatments to control the pain and urged us not to wait too long before having children since the disease would eventually claim my fertility. Praise God! We have two beautiful boys now.

My conscience twinged a bit a going to an IVF center for treatment even though I was only seeking morally licit treatments, but a wise priest advised me to go in humility and bear witness to Christ by refusing anything illicit. As it turned out, we never had to. He only offered us treatments for the disease, nothing that is contrary to Church teaching.

Sorry this is long, I just thought you might be encouraged to know that there are other young women out there who struggle with finding good doctors to treat their ob/gyn problems, and that though NaPro doctors are great, there are other good doctors, too. Don’t despair! God will help you.

I’m so sorry for your loss.  Pope Paul VI Institute does distance consultations if you are nowhere near a dr. who will try to diagnose the underlying problem.  I was on progesterone for my first successful pg; I also had surgery for endometriosis.  My cousin had four stillbirths before they found a growth that had caused her losses; she has a healthy girl now.  Anyway, for your ob to just conclude, with no tests or anything, that “your eggs are deficient” is ridiculous.  If you have an NFP teacher in your area, you might be able to get something diagnosed (or at least a good guess) that way; lots of problems show up on charts that an experienced person can interpret.  That might give you a starting point with a different dr.

Firstly, I’m sorry to hear that you are indeed miscarry. It doesn’t get any easier with subsequent losses or even when you’ve had successful pregnancies. My thoughts are with you.

Secondly, I have had 3 miscarriages & 2 live births; here is the round of testing I requested after two miscarriages in a row:
* Blood Clotting disorders/Thrombophilias/Factor V Leiden
* Antiphospholipid syndrome
* Thyroid disorders
* Ureaplasma Urealyticum & Mycoplamsa Hominis- Controversial- low grade bacteria infections that cause no symptoms in mom. Some studies say these can be linked to recurrent miscarriage but others say there’s no correlation.
* Hysteroscopy- Checks the uterine lining for fibroids and can also indicate any issues in shape such as a bicornuate uterus
* Chromosomal karyotype- both husband & I were tested for this
* Progesterone monitoring & supplementation during last live birth pregnancy, although this was not needed.

All items checked out fine. I seem to have subchorionic hematomas w/ most of the pregnancies which can increase the risk of miscarriage but only by 1-3%.
* I take progesterone for the 1st 3 months. I know it’s probably not going to help but it’s not going to hurt either. I have my OB prescribe Prometrium, I know it’s not as good as the shots but I’m actually allergic to the sesame oil in the shots.
*We are now learning the Creighton Model to rule out/in any type of underlying hormonal issues. We’re just working with a general instructor and will see an actual Napro physician if warranted.

I think what your doctor was trying to say was that your pregnancy was chromosomally abnormal, not that all of your eggs are. They say this is the case for most miscarriages but when you start having recurrent miscarriages, this theory isn’t likely applicable to you anymore. From my own personal experience, I do agree w/ the doctor that progesterone level testing when there is a question of viability is not as good as HCG doubling as an indicator of an impending miscarriage. However, I think your doctor should do what you ask. I basically told my doctor that I know I’m high maintenance & needy and that the progesterone levels may not be necessary but it would make me feel a whole lot better to know what they are. 

If you’re doctor isn’t willing to do testing, you need to find one that is. Granted, I’m one of those 60% that have no identifiable cause but maybe you’re not. Most importantly- I would demand they test the fetus in your current miscarriage to rule out/in a chromosomal problem.

Good luck.

it might not be your eggs, it could be your husband’s sperm. seminal analysis is not usually covered by insurance, but it’s relatively cheap (about $150 in my area) compared to the bloodwork panels they would do on you. many of the tests they would do for you are just for peace of mind (dna testing on you and your husband, which is still a rough science and you can’t really do anything about the results, thombrolia panels, which you take a baby aspirin for anyway) but testing for maternal illness like diabetes, thyroid disease, or some of the other things suggested previously may be worth it and covered by your insurance. Some doctors don’t agree about the function of progesterone in pregnancy. Napro doctors believe that progesterone helps to develop the baby as well as the placenta, where some ob/gyns think it only sustains a pregnancy. My Napro doctor thought that endometriosis directly caused miscarriage by poisoning the baby with toxins, but another ob/gyn said that was hogwash. It’s frustrating! I agree that a reproductive endocrinologist (but the hormone panels are not often covered, and they can be as expensive as $1500 a cycle) may be worth seeking out, or a regular endocrinologist may be able to help. We resided in a very small town for a while, so I understand how finding these doctors may be hard depending on where you live. This might not be something you can fix on your own though, there are no one-size-fits-all solutions, and you either travel and find solutions or you continue on the path of recurrent miscarriage. I’m so sorry for your loss of this current baby, I will keep you in my prayers. I’ve had seven miscarriages myself, and unfortunately it doesn’t get easier each time. It’s extremely frustrating to keep trying, to keep fighting the doctors for supportive care, to keep the faith through all of this.

testing the fetus/baby after a loss is not covered by insurance and it’s very expensive. not only that, but depending on the decomposition rates, less than 50% of the time they can find a cause of death like trisomy xyz. so you pay thousands of dollars and are not guaranteed an answer?

I go to an amazing NaPro-trained Dr. in a clinic in White Bear Lake, MN. The clinic is called Aalfa Family Clinic. According to mapquest, it’s just over 2 hours from Duluth.

http://www.aalfafamily.com/

I know they accept MA (medical assistance) b/c that’s what my daughter is on. I wonder if you could drive down once for an initial appointment and then have Aalfa send lab orders for regular progesterone levels to a lab in Duluth with the results sent to Aalfa. I go to Aalfa but it’s a 25 min. drive from my house, so rather than going there to get my 2x/weekly pregnancy progesterone shots, I have the progesterone and syringes mailed to my house and my husbands administers them to me (it’s pretty simple and the doctor gave us written instructions.) Then, every 2 weeks I need my level checked, so drive up to Aalfa, but you could easily go to a local lab with an order from Aalfa, as I mentioned above. Aalfa always calls me with my results and tells me over the phone to maintain the same dose, decrease it or discontinue it.

I just want to remind you that it takes a very special couple to create a soul that goes straight to heaven to glorify God. In case you haven’t found this prayer I hope it helps!

http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/prayers/miscarriage.htm

May God guide you on your path through this trying time!

This is intended for everyone who responded to my original post:
Thank you so much for your suggestions. I’m in Duluth, MN and I have free government health insurance, so not a lot of things are covered. I can try another OB in the practice where I am right now, but any out-of-pocket medical expenditures are just not going to happen. I have a son already, so that’s one of the reasons why my doctor is so convinced that I couldn’t possibly have a problem. I had one miscarriage before my son, and now two after. I’m still breastfeeding and my son is almost two, which I’ve heard can effect progesterone levels. That’s why I think that progesterone might be the answer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that a blood clotting disorder is also unlikely because I’ve had a healthy child. At my last ultrasound, they took a look at my uterus and ovaries, and everything looked healthy and normal. I don’t have especially painful or heavy periods, either.
I think I will probably ask to have my thyroid checked at my appointment on Friday and talk about options for managing future pregnancies, but I don’t know when I’ll be emotionally ready to try again. I’m just so disheartened right now.

Sorry I only have time for a short post - but I had a full-term pregnancy, two miscarriages (one of which I was supplemented with progesterone until the miscarriage), another full-term pregnancy (with progesterone injections through the first trimester) and then another miscarriage (progesterone supplementation was not necessary). Subsequently, I was found to have a genetic clotting disorder that could be responsible for the miscarriages. So, just b/c you have a living son does not necessarily rule out a clotting problem.

My sympathy and prayers for your loss.

Concerned Mom:

In Duluth there is a Creighton/NaPro teaching center.  I would contact someone there and at least ask about a local doctor they might recommend.  NFP teachers usually know who the good local doctors are and who the quacks are.  Their contact information is:

http://www.nfpduluth.org/
Northland Family Programs
A FertilityCare™ Center
403 East Third Street
Duluth, MN 55805
(218) 786-2378
(800) 842-0279
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

If you aren’t already charting NFP, it would be helpful for you to learn how to chart so that in the future, if you can manage a NaPro doctor visit, then at least you have that option.  Just from charting, a NaPro doctor can sometimes already see if there are signs of low progesterone, endometriosis, things like this.  I know that if you chart, you can get your file & charts looked over by Dr. Hilgers at the Pope Paul VI institute for $50 and he will review everything and write you a decent length letter with his recommendations. 

Not knowing your situation, I still think you may be able to get treatment with a NaPro doctor, even though you are on government insurance.  It doesn’t hurt to ask.  The people at the Creighton center may be able to answer your questions on that as well.  I know that the one thing NaPro doctors do really well is to code testing and labwork so that they get paid for by insurance.  It would be so worth it just for the health of your future children!

And my cousin had two perfectly healthy children and then had a stillborn/late miscarriage at around 32 weeks because of Factor V Leiden.  Not that I would wish that on you in all the world!  But it can happen, even with one healthy child who is with you.

Blessings!

I’m not a Clear Blue user, but my fertility didn’t return until 10 months postpatrum even though I stopped ecological breastfeeding after 3 months (long story) and switched to nursing on a schedule with a very few “comfort suckles.” I would occasionally get a few weak fertility signs, but not enough to signal ovulation. In all likelihood, the monitors are working, and if you’re also keeping your Creighton charts you can trust their accuracy. You probably just aren’t fertile yet. There is wide variation in the return of fertility while breastfeeding. A very few will be fertile just a few weeks after birth even though they are practicing ecological breastfeeding, and a very few women have to wean completely before fertility returns. Most of us are somewhere in between. Have patience, and try not to overthink things. Of course, when in doubt contact your instructor.

I didn’t use the monitor that early, but I did not have any bleeding until about 15 months pp. Take it for what it’s worth, but some of us take longer to get back to cycling and the related hormones.

congratulations! and many prayer for a healthy pregnancy. perhaps in the future, your husband would be willing to do the charting (so it’s not all your “fault” and you’re not the bad guy for saying not tonight), and you could have consultations with your nfp instructor to clear up any confusion with your charts. a consultation now would help you realize how you misinterpreted the signs to avoid that “mistake” next time.

Congratulations! 

NFP helped us postpone a pregnancy for 2 full years, and then we, too, misread the signs.  It took my husband 2 weeks to come around to being happy about the baby (she was #4 and we had wanted to be “done” at 3).  She was such a happy, wonderful baby, that we actively went ahead for 5, 6, 7, and 8 (two were lost to miscarriage)! 

We are planning to be “done” again now, so I’m being very conservative in interpreting the signs.  My husband does not help with my charting at all, so it’s all up to me.  If I have any doubt, I say no.  My last pregnancy was extremely difficult, as was labor, delivery, and recovery, and I’m no spring chicken anymore, so that memory helps my will power!  (For the most part ....) Anyway, my only suggestion is to be extremely conservative in reading your signs until you are completely comfortable with your cycle.  I don’t know how long you have been charting, but that’s what I would suggest.  I have not had consistent cycles for a very long time, so it’s almost like it’s all new to me again. 

I hope that helps, and I hope your husband is willing to work with you on it.  Until then, enjoy your freedom from charting! 

just to say, you’re not alone! We’ve been using NFP for almost nine years, and I have about 48 hours of sexual interest right when I ovulate, and that is IT. My dh keeps complaining that he heard our 30’s were supposed to be better than our 20’s, but geesh, I haven’t had a libido in nine years! If you find something that works, tell me… cause NFP sure isn’t helping us in that department.

Definitely can relate to this.  I’ve seen it as sort of an unfortunate side-effect of the fertility suppression that breastfeeding affords; definitely haven’t had much libido since having my daughter, which was a complete reversal from pregnancy when my libido was actually higher than normal.

My husband has been pretty understanding, but still - it doesn’t make me happy to just not feel “in the mood”; I have all sorts of comfy cuddly feelings but just wouldn’t mind if sex fell off the map, and sometimes it feels a bit like a chore.  But - what’s worked for me is to set some sort of a schedule as far as how often it’s important to me and my husband that we try for that sort of intimacy, and then just hold myself to it - not a “x day of the week” kind of thing, but an “I won’t let more than x amount of time go by before I’ll make sure to initiate something.”  That way things are at least happening regularly, and I find that I can get in the mood once we get going.

The other thing that I’ve found *really* helps is to make sure that we do things that set the mood.  Candles, lingerie, whatever helps to switch my mood from mom/housekeeper/milk-maker to best friend/lover/wife.

Also I try to remind myself that this is all just a season; this too shall pass!  Make sure you’re getting enough sleep and enough time for prayer, relaxation, “me-time”, because that will help as well.

My libido also tends to take a hike during much of the first post-natal year.  There’s a strange disconnect between desire and capacity for enjoyment which I’m fairly sure is hormonal.

Things I have discovered after five children

If I spend too much time thinking about how I don’t really feel like sex, it becomes more and more unappealing.  On the other hand if I decide that this feeling isn’t rational (after taking my state of tiredness and health into consideration)  and decide to respond to my husband’s desire anyways, I’ve found that I’ve never regretted it and generally enjoy it. 

It helps that my husband is understanding and willing to adjust.  A bit of experimentation has helped us figure out that the best time for us during this stage is morning before the burdens of the day have come up and when I’m feeling rested but still comfy/sleepy making it easier to gently move from cozy cuddling to more.

Wow!  I could have written your post a few weeks ago!  I’m in the same exact boat.  While I still feel incredibly attracted to my husband - I’m too exhausted and too “touched out” from nursing and having a toddler climbing all over me to be interested in being “touched” at night!  I talked with my midwife about it at my last appointment.  A couple things she mentioned:
1.  Breastfeeding is actually a natural depressant.  The prolactin that helps produce milk is also a hormone that impacts your mood. 
2.  Make sure your using all your senses when with your husband.  Light some good smelling candles, turn on some music (turn off the baby monitor), warm up the house.
3.  Have your husband use a firmer touch (little kids tend to use a lighter touch) so that it seperates itself from the rest of the day.  You may also want to limit breast play because that may kick your mind back to a nursling.
4.  Build up to it - text, send emails, make an afternoon phone call….build anticipation.
5.  Have faith that as time passes, nursing slows, and your find your daily routine - you’ll most likely fall back into your old patterns….

Thanks ladies for the support and suggestions.  It’s so nice when you know that you are not the only one struggling! 

Your NaPro instructor should have an idea of how long it will take for your body to readjust from that particular bc method so you can have accurate charts.  It may require a long stretch of abstaining though, as your body and hormones restart normal function and you learn your signs; all the years of artificial hormones can make things haywire for awhile and it takes time to come off that.  Someone above suggested having dh do the charting so he is part of it too (it’s not just you interpreting alone, but two sets of eyes) and so it’s not you feeling like the gatekeeper… maybe that would help in your situation too.  I agree that Creighton sounds like a good fit for you; they are *very* medical-oriented (that’s why they call observing fertility signs “NaPro Technology” - it just sounds so high-tech for the doubters ) and have a lot of research to back them up (not that other methods don’t, they just emphasize other aspects more).  They also will have much experience with medical treatment for whatever was causing your earlier problems.  Birth control didn’t make that go away, it just masked it, so if I were you, I’d make sure your NaPro person knows that up front so you can get some real treatment for that right away, before it’s a huge problem again.  Your instructor should also be able to help dh understand how bad bc is for your health, so that might help his openness to NFP too.  Good luck and prayers for you!

Would it help your husband if you took the approach of expressing that this transition period is your body “detoxing” from potentially harmful artificial hormones. Though the transition period likely will require most abstinence than is comfortable, it will also result in a much healthier woman - a goal that I’d like to think many men would encourage. It will require sacrifice on his part, but it really is for an objective good. Further, being off chemicals may reveal the underlaying cause of your painful periods, should they reoccur - again, another good. I know that doesn’t make the moments when you have to say “not tonight” any easier, but it also gives you a joint goal and purpose that is bigger than just the theology with which he doesn’t agree.

No judgment Deborah just prayers as you take this journey that God would give both you and your husband wisdom and discernment for the road ahead.

I also was on the birth control pill when I was young/single and I believe it helped preserve my fertility.  Unbearable bleeding and cramps, suspected endometriosis (can’t spell that right now).  I hope that does not return for you.

From what I know I believe Creighton requires the most abstinance when you are trying to avoid and have a difficult cycle, such as constant mucos.  If you have high anxiety you might supplement the method with ovulation predictor kits or a fetility monitor.  Alone those are not effect as you can conceive if you have sex within 5 days of ovulation and the kit would not indicate 5 days before ovulation but may help you to be more confident of when ovulation occurred adn the safe days post-ovulation.

My first thought was “welcome back!!!!!!”  :>)  With so many fallen-away Catholics, I can’t help but rejoice when someone returns.  :>)

Now, in regards to your question, I also have a non-Catholic hubs, but I guess we are “blessed” in that the babies aren’t coming nearly as quickly as we’d like (or right now, at all, sigh).  I read the book “Taking Charge of Your Fertility” and just passed over anything that was contrary to church teaching, like using barrier birth control.  I was surprised at how easy of a read it was, especially for as thick as it is!

I’ve been charting my temps for several months now - I just bought a thermometer and make sure to pick it up first thing in the morning, and it’s not hard at all.  I also try to keep an eye on my mucus, but admittedly I’m not great at that.  Good luck!

Eating Vitamin A rich foods and/or taking a natural (beta-carotene based) Vitamin A supplement can be really effective at increasing mucus.

Mucinex or another guaifenisen-only med can help too.

Read “Fertility, Cycles & Nutrition” by Marilyn Shannon.  She’s got the whole topic covered wonderfully, & included a good deal on pregnancy/fertility in your 40s.

(Btw, if you search in the podcast archives here, you can listen to an interview one of the bloggers here did with her, maybe a year ago (?) Sept/Oct.?)

Mrs. Kippley, I just saw your name pop up on the comment sidebar, and had to jump over to thank you (and your husband) for your work. 

In particular, I want to thank you for sharing the “Madonna Rosary” (with the 5 mysteries of the Maternity of Mary) at the end of your book “Breastfeeding and Catholic Motherhood.”  What a blessing that meditation had been to me!

I am a Creighton/NaPro technology gal myself, but am so grateful for the work you and your husband have done & still do. God bless you!