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Request input on possible original research content

What this noticeboard is for: Shortcuts: WP:NORN WP:NOR/N WP:ORN WP:OR/N Editors may ask for advice about material that might be original research or original synthesis. If the content in question includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position, it may not be published on Wikipedia. If you're not sure whether the content is considered original research, please post here so other users may take a look at it.

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How to help out What is the no original research noticeboard? This noticeboard is for editors to request input on material that may be original research or original synthesis. How do I mark an incident as resolved? Use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section containing the report. How do I archive an incident? Routine archival is automated, but any issue that has not been edited for seven days may be copied to the appropriate archive page. Archives Previous reports are archived after resolution or after a set time period has passed. If you are looking for a previous report, you may use the search function below to find it. Archives 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18

Contents 1 History of video game consoles (seventh generation) 2 Leonard Cohen biography 3 Cultural reference on Chuck 4 Honda D engine 5 Spector & Associates 6 List of the biggest selling R&B/Hip Hop albums of all time in the United States 7 Conducting surveys or a tally on Wikipedia 8 Proofreading 9 Accurate representation of a source 10 Simple calculations 11 Yellowstone and Yellowstone Lake 12 Triple Goddess (Neopaganism)

[edit] History of video game consoles (seventh generation)

There is a long debate occurring on the video game project page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games/RfC_on_video_game_console_grouping) regarding the use of the term "generations" in the History of video games and related articles. Some editors have objected to the term for lacking sources. Other editors have found some sources which use the term (this one talks about generations 1-6: https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://strategy.sauder.ubc.ca/nakamura/iar515p/gallagher_innovation.pdf) (this one defines generation 7: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=epBIhmdsfxMC&oi=fnd&pg=PA184&dq=wii+seventh+generation&ots=9IbZE7z3EL&sig=AL7od0tw-uzu0EsBXc9cMqo3S_o#v=onepage&q=wii%20seventh%20generation&f=false). It is accepted that many sources can be found to place each console within a certain generation (for example: "The SNES and Genesis dominated the fourth generation of home consoles". However, certain editors have argued that it is original research and/or synthesis unless we can find one source that includes one entire list of every console and names all consoles in every generation. Others feel that as long as sufficient reliable sources can be found to name a certain console in a certain generation, that is sufficient for its inclusion as a member of that generation (and discrepancies should be handled by weighting the minority and majority positions appropriately).

The discussion is somewhat more complicated as some have also argued that the term "generation" must have a standard definition which we then apply ourselves to the consoles. Others have argued applying a definition to the consoles would be original research, especially if it conflicts with the majority of reliable sources.

So, I pose two questions:

1. Is it original research or synthesis to use different sources to create a complete list of consoles' generations?

2. Is it original research or synthesis to apply a definition to consoles in a manner that sources do not?LedRush (talk) 05:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd say Yes, and Yes. Console "generations" are poorly defined. No two sources really agree on how to delineate them well. Combining sources to determine the criteria is clear OR. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:18, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I am not surprised by your answer to question 2 (which I, too, believe is clear OR), but I am not sure I was clear on the other question. No one was proposing combining sources to determine any criteria. The criteria are laid out in that first citation above, and virtually every source agrees on which console goes in which generation. The question is whether you need one source that lists every generation and every single console in each, or could you use the second source above to say "this is the seventh generation"?LedRush (talk) 14:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Please stop saying "virtually every source" when its clear that isn't the case. There are some sources that agree, possibly even a majority for some generations, but not "virtually every". Also, there is no clear method that distinquishes how to classify every generation.陣内_Jinnai 00:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Virtually every source does agree. I think the Odyssey2 is the only one I've seen that doesn't conform. If you'd like to show me some others, that would be nice, but your last attempt ended up supporting my arguments (and one of the links isused above).LedRush (talk) 01:04, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Could you give an example of question 1? I'm not sure I fully understand. Marcus Qwertyus 00:45, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, let's say we take the two citations above and assume that they are RSs and otherwise meet all WP criteria for making an article. The first lists major consoles from the first generation to the sixth generation, but doesn't mention the seventh generation as it was published before the seventh generation began. The second source lists some consoles from the sixth and seventh generations. I guess the question is two-fold:

• 1. Can we use the second source (again, assuming it meets all other WP criteria) as a source for the article on the History of video game consoles (seventh generation) (or is it Synth/OR because it doesn't list all seven generations)?
• 2. Can we use the the first source as a source for generations 1-6 on the History of video game consoles article and the second one as a source for generations 6-7 on the same article, or is that Synth/OR?LedRush (talk) 01:03, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

To restate this issue, the problem is that we have several, very reliable sources that give the fact(s) "Console 'A1' is in Generation 'N1'", "Console 'A2' is in Generation 'N2'", and so forth for about 40-50 hardware units (An) and generations (N1-N7). Now, there are a handful of differences in certain assignments, but, say, 80% of the time, they're consistent. Some have suggested that because WP adapted the term Generation, the press has begun using it more, which is certainly a possibility, and avoids the CIRCULAR argument.

But what we're have a problem is here is that there is no source that says "Generation 'N1' is defined by this property". They'll list out the consoles they believe are in those generations (if they do so in the first place), again with the small differences noted above, but there is no single accepted metric of what a "Generation" is.

The way I've tried to compare this is to the paleontology eras (Mesozoic era, Ice age, etc.), or even modern human history ages (Dark Ages, Industrial Era), where there are standard definitions that have been agreed to by experts, which generally say "This era is bounded by the years Y to Z". That means, in those cases, if an event occurred in that range, we can say (if its necessary) that it happened in that era. We cannot say the same thing with the sources we have that outline what belongs in a generation but don't turn around to define what a generation actually is. This leads to speculation and original research when describing anything else that is not specifically defined to be part of a specific generation. Case in point are the next major portable gaming console releases, the Nintendo 3DS and the "NGP" (Next Generation Portable) both due to release this year. We're having edit wars on the various generation articles because people, well naturally, think that because they are new units, the generation number must go up by one, thus starting the yet-to-be defined eighth generation. If the definition of generations was clearer from the existing sources, it might be possible to make stronger assertions on this, but that definition just doesn't exist, and the one-way labeling of consoles to generations just doesn't help enough.

This is why some of us consider it original research and while certainly not getting rid of the term "generation", we want to order our articles by a less speculative metric, specifically through year of release which is indisputable. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Perfectly alright. Synthesis would be to use one source that says 6th gen consoles have X, Y, and Z and another that says console A has X, Y, and Z features to assert that Console A is in fact 6th gen.

Another no no: don't find a source that says "all consoles released after x date are x gen" and then cite the release date as a the reason for it being x gen. Marcus Qwertyus 01:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Great. What about this: Source A defines Generation Y as being characterized by X attributes. Source B says that Console 1 is in Generation Y. Source C says that Console 1 doesn't have X attributes. So, would either the following (1) or (2) by OR/Synth?:

• (1) Editor concludes that Source B is wrong and that Console 1 is not in Generation Y.
• (2) Editor further concludes that applying the definition to Console 1 makes it Part of Generation Y-1(the one previous to Y).LedRush (talk) 03:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

I tweaked your wording a bit. Both would be synthesis. From what we know so far Console 1 is 7th Gen. It is 7th gen unless more sources explicitly say it is 6th gen than sources explicitly say it is 7th gen. Marcus Qwertyus 04:00, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, well, we're completely on the same page, so far. Above, Masem argues that we don't have a definition for generation (we actually do, one based on year of release, competitors, cpu-power and marketing in the citation above), but if we did, we could call the 3DS and NGP a next generation (assuming they fell within this definition). I believe that this is also OR/Synth because you can't use a definition to interpret whether or not something is part of an eighth generation. However, if we have sources that claim that these consoles are in the eighth generation, then we could cite those sources.LedRush (talk) 05:06, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

The problem is 6th gen compared to what? Since there is no clear distinction - and in fact many disagreements as you go back in time to gen1-3, what is gen N, then how can we say that X is gen 6 means that its the gen 6 we have defined? We cannot know what they mean by Gen 6th because enough sources do disagree that without context its impossible to say when they say "Gen 6" are these consoles, and not these. There is a lot of assumption going around. The biggest differences are academic sources, industry sources and press sources. FE: the PlayStation 2 is listed as 5th, 6th and 7th gen depending on who you ask. The differences come because each has their own determination of what a "generation" is. Even those that agree which generation for PS2, may disagree for other systems like the Dreamcast or Nintendo DS.陣内_Jinnai 02:02, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

You are conducting OR with these claims. As stated above, you just use the generation the best/most sources use, and if there is large enough dissenting opinion (which I highly doubt as I've only seen one source contradict the sixth generation (because it conflated generations 1-2) and I've never seen one dispute the Dreamcast's place in it), you can mention the dissenting opinion, making sure not to place undue weight on it. But you can't conduct your own original research to dispute reliable sources, and your insistence on doing that is a bit exasperating.LedRush (talk) 03:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not the same. You're talking about essentially cherry picking pieces from various sources to contract a timeline of generations because not many support the current framework and they don't say how they came to it, plus there is some evidence of CIRCULAR, although not central problem. The bottom line is your trying to ram through a timeline that is disputed because its no real effort been shown how each generation is definined and there is not, by any means, a way to say clearly that when the majority of RSes talk about generation N they are meaning the generation division that exists in Wikipedia; indeed for older generations the opposite is the case. It's been clearly shown the curently labeled generation 1 is not supported by "nearly every" source; in fact not one source I came across supported it.

It would be a different matter as not needing a clear way to define "generation" if all the sources agreed, but they don't. Also there are several industry experts who claim that the use of generation model used here is not used in the manner done by Wikipedia, just that people talke about "next generation" all the time which begs the question, is it really as widely supported as you claim?陣内_Jinnai 06:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

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I'm sorry, but I am not cherry picking anything to contract a timeline of generations. Even opponents of the grouping like Masem concede that 80% of the time the sources match (I think this is a conservative estimate). When I have asked you for sources which contradict out generation layout, you have failed to provide more than a couple of outlying nits, which should be discussed in the articles themselves. Also, could you please show sources that say that the industry doesn't use the generation model we have (not that this would be dispositive evidence of anything)? And you are conducting OR for your claims. We have sources that lay out the sixth generation, and they agree with each other, and you say it doesn't count because in your own research you cannot confirm that they are using the term "generation" to mean the same thing.LedRush (talk) 12:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Masem has said 80% are consistant, but that doesn't really say much. It's also just a gestimate on his part and I'd say its actually a bit high. When I have asked you for sources you've produced not even 1 single source that backs up those claims save a few that list X ad a Y generation, but don't define what it is. OR does not have anything to do with claims - it has to do with article content only, which the division of content also is part of. Not all the sources agree about the 6th generation and even the one Masem used above do not agree with the 6th generation as they don't list the Dreamcast as part of it. You are the one conducting OR by assuming that they just left it off because it was an old model of the 6th gen because there is no clear definition of 6th gen. As far as we can verify that source says only 3 consoles were part of the 6th gen. Since they're not the same and there is no clear definition, we cannot simply say that they're leaving the DC out. That is why you're picking sources here and there to construct your argument.

As for showing you what a generation is, you should know that proving a negative is not something that can be done. However, you've not yet proven that it is used by a large consistantly and even if it is, academic sources disagree with you.

Finally even if there are a few that agree on what a "6th generation" is, there are a lot of older consoles where this agreement breaks down and yet you want to use OR to place consoles in various segmenets regimenting all the way back to a 1st generation in a way that RSes disagree with.

Finally, those searches you produced elsewhere to prove you point are not talking mostly about video game generations as we are talking about here by and large, but a group of people known as the "video game generation".陣内_Jinnai 17:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not OR to use one source to say that a certain console is 6th generation and use another source to say that another console is also 6th generation. However, it is OR to say that Source X lists these three consoles as part of the 6th generation and therefore contradicts any other source that adds a new console to part of the 6th generation. It's not just OR, it doesn't make any logical sense. There is no contradiction here accept for the one you are creating by using illogical assumptions.

And I don't know what you're talking about regarding the "video game generation", please link to it. I also don't know what you're talking about when you say I want "to place consoles in various segmenets regimenting all the way back to a 1st generation in a way that RSes disagree with." All I want to do is say that when a RS calls a console a certain generation, we can call it that generation. You want to investigate whether the definition they used is consistent (OR) or whether that creates problems for listing other generations in your mind (OR).LedRush (talk) 19:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

It is OR because there is no clear definition of generation and therefore you cannot know what they mean by generation and how their classification of generation goes, unless they spell it out. While there are a few sources that do this, there are RSes that contradict on how they are classified and no there aren't many of those types and most of the more scholarly ones do disagree with those presented above.

"All I want to do is say that when a RS calls a console a certain generation, we can call it that generation." that's the crux of my problem because you have not shown evidence of how most of the sources when they say "X generation" mean the same thing as the majority of other sources.

It's hard to prove a negative (that they aren't using generations differently) which is why WP:V requires the opposite: that those wanting to add contriversial claims - and this certainly qualifies as one - prove otherwise. Neither you nor anyone else has really shown that when as source talks about the 6th generation, they are basing it on the same generation model as everyone else. You get to it largely though combining source A + B to = C which isn't supported by the facts, ie they all agree on the same generation model.陣内_Jinnai 20:46, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

When you have tried to show that there are different definitions of generations, you have proven the opposite. Please show sources that prove this position of give up this tired argument. We can clearly show that sources say that a certain console is from a certain generation, so verifiability is not an issue. And there is a clear definition of a generation which is stated above. You may not like it, but it is there and from a RS. Also, if you apply this definition to other consoles, you are conducting OR (as proven above). If several sources say that a certain console if from a certain generation, but you disagree based on your own feelings or definition of generation, that is also OR (also proven above). LedRush (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I have not. There is no way you can say that because X source says something is 3rd gen and Y source says its 3rd gen they are talking about the 3rd gen. Furthermore, you cannot say when a source omits consoles in a listing its just doing so because it doesn't need to for whatever reason because there is no industry standard for what makes up a generation. You are trying to introduce OR to video game history through synthesis.

That standard you use does not agree with the current model and is not considered an industry standard as far as sources can be shown; indeed there are sources that you have shown that would disagree.That source is a RS, but it is not some overwhelmingly used source that other RSes point to when citing generation. In addition, there is no definition of 7th generation and there are sources. It should be given the weight of every other source otherwise that's a WP:NPOV violation.陣内_Jinnai 22:22, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but if two different sources say that two things are third generation, it is OR to say that they must be in conflict because of some standard of "generation" you want to apply to them.

And the definition of "generation" used in the RS above works fine with the model...but you cannot use OR to dispute it. And there are many sources for the 7th generation, so I don't know what you're talking about now. You have seen sources for what constitutes the seventh generation above, so you need to be more careful with your statements.LedRush (talk) 04:17, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Your arguments are flawed on a fundimental level because you're assuming that when everyone talks about a generation they all are speaking with one voice. There is no industry standard and that source Masem claims cannot be used to say others agree with it because, again, you'd be assuming without a clear industry standard that when X says something is Y generation they would be using that model. That's the big blantant load of OR.陣内_Jinnai 04:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

No, I am not assuming anything. I merely use the sources and cite what they say. However, your argument involves original research because you are trying to pull outside information to conduct your own investigation into whether or not people are talking about some fake "generation" labeling that we have no evidence even exists. Your argument is entirely based on speculation and the assumption that there is a shadowy underworld of generation labeling that exists outside of our knowledge, and therefor every source that cites a console as being part of a generation can't be trusted unless it lists every single console from generation 1 until now and includes a perfect definition of what constitutes a generation that is so concrete that if you were to conduct your own personal investigation into its validity, it would pass your test. I would like to remind you that the uninvolved editors above have already indicated that it is not original research to use the sources in the way that we currently do, and that it is synthesis to use a definition from one source to impeach another source or to dispute the generation based on an outside definition. If you don't believe me, why don't you ask this board AGAIN about how the generation name is applied in the article and see what the uninvolved editors say. They have already thrown out your arguments and verified the current system, but maybe you don't like the way the questions were asked, so try again. The bickering between you and me will not solve anything. The reason I came here was so that we could clearly label what is and isn't OR so we could discuss things more clearly. But you're simply ignoring others' opinion on the OR issue and dominating the discussion so that no one else would want to give any input.LedRush (talk) 12:34, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

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You are assuming that when someone says 3rd generation they mean the same thing as someone else. If you didn't, you wouldn't want to cite those sources saying there are plenty of sources saying that there are 3 7th gen systems. You are assuming they all use the same criteria for backing up those claims. Your argument is entirely based on the speculation that when someone says something they mean the same thing as someone else when no industry or standard (and no academic standard) has been shown to exist. Your assuming that it does. I would like to remind you that other univolved editors have also claimed it is very much so original research and that you are the only one who truly thinks there is absolutely no original research and no issues period. You are clearly the minority opinion here. If you don't believe me ask again, making certain to put a notice on everyone who was involved in the RfC that its up again. You are simply ignoring others opinions because you refuse to listen to what has been said here and elsewhere. Yes there are some others who believed you, but it wouldn't have gone to an RfC if I was the only one.

You had one editor here agree with you and one editor disagree and chose to ignore the one who disagreed and focus solely on the one who did. Therefore you cannot claim that there is no OR going on. Even Masem has voiced doubts on the use of the sources being used as they are as OR.陣内_Jinnai 23:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

We are not getting anywhere. When neutral observers come in and tell you you're wrong, but you refuse to listen, I don't know what I can do. I assume from your long diatribe misrepresenting my views, that you've decided once again not to provide any evidence that we should automatically disregard any citation that does not contain within it a complete list of all geneartions of consoles (which appears to be the only source you'll accept, though you've rejected the one that has 6 out of 7 on it). Perhaps it's time for mediation? Is there a simpler solution that we've been ignoring as we argue our points again and again and again?LedRush (talk) 23:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

The same could be said about you since you seem to ignore the first editor who came here and said both were OR.

I don't have to provide evidence. You do. That's what WP:BURDEN is about. The burden is on you to show that its not reliable as multiple editors, ie not just me, believe it is OR. The sources aren't directly supporting the claims. Proving a negative is not something that is expected because it is nigh impossible.

As for what I'd accept, I don't need a source stating what every console is. However, If you or someone like Masem - not me - can show me that the source that lists criteria for 1-6 is widely accepted by those 80% you claim are in agreement, then that's good enough for 1-6 generation. If you can show also that if those same sources agree on the 7th gen, that's also good enough. The problem is you haven't done anything to show that the source is widely accepted. Finally, if and when you show that the current history and many of the spinoffs will have to be rewritten it does not have the same generation scheme as Wikipedia's article does.陣内_Jinnai 23:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you have mistaken proving a negative (which is sometimes hard, but it is hardly impossible) with disproving a positive. I have shown numerous sources which refer to certain consoles being in the same generation as each other, and simple google searches reveal more. I have easily met and surpassed the burden, and now it is your burden to disprove the hundreds of RSs which almost completely agree with each other. For example:

Wii, PS3 and xbox360 are in the seventh generation: [1]

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in the seventh generation: [2]

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in the seventh generation: [3]

Book entitled "Seventh Generation Video Game Consoles" lists PS3, Wii and xbox360 in its title [4]

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in seventh generation [5]

Wii. PS3 and xbox360 are in seventh generation [6]

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in seventh generation [7] This source has a good overview of all the generations, and defines the differences between generations as being marked by, among other things, performance metrics and storage media.

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in the seventh generation [8]

Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in the seventh generation [9]

If you don't like a couple of these for any reason, don't worry, there are hundreds more that can be given. I now await all the sources that claim that the Xbox 360 is part of a generation other than the seventh. Of course, we would need to find several before we could merely make a mention in the article that some small minority of sources disagree, and dozens before it begins to actually challenge the wall of sources that say it's seventh, but I await your examples regardless.LedRush (talk) 02:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

And the problem is they disagree. You are once again cherry picking which items to list here as to what they say should go in the seventh generation. I just had to go down to your 4th example (the first 3 are unreliable sources and thus what they say cannot be used to verify common usage) to find that that one lists more units that you do. I didn't bother with the rest because its clear from those that you're just picking stuff from whatever source you can use, not reliable sources and then cherry picking the results out to match your own view.陣内_Jinnai 17:12, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

While I would be happy for you to tell me why you think the sources aren't reliable, I can assure you that your personal attack on me is untrue: I am not cherry picking anything. I set out to find sources that list the Wii, PS3 and Xbox360 as part of the seventh generation, and have done so. Please provide some sources which say that the Wii is in some other generation, or merely accept what the vast majority of RSs have noted, that the Wii, PS3 and Xbox360 are seventh generation consoles.LedRush (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

No what I'm saying by you cherry picking is that you are just saying that you already have an assumption - only the Wii, Xbox360 and PS3 are 7th gen and then when the source adds more to it then that, you don't go and mention that because it contradicts you claim that there is agreement on what is considered "7th generation". That's how it appears because all I had to do to find that was read down a couple paragraphs, ie it wasn't buried deep within the book.陣内_Jinnai 19:11, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure how you are misunderstanding me, but it is clear we have a disconnect. I stated that "I have shown numerous sources which refer to certain consoles being in the same generation as each other" and then showed sources that demonstrate that the "Wii, PS3 and xbox 360 are in the seventh generation." Now I am asking you to please find me some sources that say they are not in the seventh generation.LedRush (talk) 23:32, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

You showed some unreliabel sources that showed that, which cannot be used as proof here, and sources that showed ""Wii, PS3 and xbox 36 and others are 7th generation"; finally you showed some reliable sources that did exactly what you claim. Point being you have shown that there isn't an overwhelming agreement you claim.陣内_Jinnai 23:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Wait, so the reliable sources, (and unspecified unreliable ones) all say that the Wii, the xbox360 and the PS3 are in the seventh generation, right?LedRush (talk) 00:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

That's why I say you're cherry picking. I said some said that - in addition to other units - while others only said those 3. Ignoring that others said more than those 3 and thus saying "everyone agrees" when there is no universally used basis for 7th gen proves my point - there is no clear definition for 7th gen. When X talks about 7th gen they mean something else than Y. If they did, there wouldn't be such disagreements.陣内_Jinnai 17:28, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

OK, so you concede that everyone agrees that the Wii, PS3 and the 360 are in the seventh generation, right?LedRush (talk) 22:21, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

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No. Since they don't all agree on which consoles are 7th gen nor which criteria makes up a 7th gen I cannot agree because there is no definition. It's like saying all of them are "bold" consoles. What is "bold"? There's no definition for it. We had this discussion about computer role-playing games and console role-playing games. You are trying to make me say WP:SYNTHESIS can be completely ignored here and I won't agree to that because they don't all agree. You can't simply say "well since they all say X, Y and Z are, but thy don't all say A, B and C are we can just pretend like no one says anything about A, B and C" when there's no clear evidence what makes X, Y and Z the same. That is violating not just OR, its also violating WP:NPOV (you'd be trying to push an agenda that the other consoles some list aren't 7th gen).

If they had ALL said ONLY the PS3, Wii and Xbox 360 were 7th gen, I might be more willing, but its clear they aren't. I'd also though by the same token not allow 3DS and the PSP2 statements to say "next generation" = 8th since that's a buzzword that the industry commonly uses when something new comes out.陣内_Jinnai 23:37, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I think this response of yours is a perfect example of why we can't get anything done on this topic. If you are unwilling to concede such a basic point, there is really no point in discussing this with you because you have no basis in reality. All I was saying is that each of the above sources agreed that the Wii, PS3 and the Xbox 360 are in the seventh generation, nothing more. Because each clearly does this, and you deny it, I don't see how we can agree on anything more. I think mediation is the only way forward.LedRush (talk) 00:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

You want me to concede to allowing sythensis? You want to simply ignore that some people group other systems in their listing of 7th gen because it goes against your statement that virtually everyone agrees on what systems make up 7th gen. No, [b]I will never agree to allowing synthesis in Wikipedia.[/b] You are saying they all agree to that; if they did why do some also have DS and PSP? Expalin that and how those systems fit into the equation because some of the RSes you have use those then explain how you can ignore those RSes and pretend they don't really include those and just have the PS3, Xbox360 and Wii listed as 7th gen.陣内_Jinnai 15:52, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, but when you so greatly distort my views and fail to merely look at the references, I can no longer assume good faith on your part. Every source I provided includes the Wii, PS3 and the 360 as part of the seventh generation, and you can not concede that simple point. If you want to make bigger points, they are lost by your disingenuous refusal to accept an undisputable claim: that each of the references provided above includes the Wii, PS3 and 360. It is clear that we cannot engage in intelligent conversation until you either adjust your attitude or until we enter a formal mediation process.LedRush (talk) 16:56, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I refuse to unless you admit that they did not all agree on what consoles make up a 7th generation and therefore there is no overwhelming majority. The way I look at it, is it seem to want me to admit that so you can say "They agree on those systems so then those systems must be 7th generation" which is not what U am willing to say. Call me sceptical, but I can't really assume good faith on your part because of the way you've been trying to twists words around.陣内_Jinnai 06:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Your refusal proves that you are not discussing in good faith. I want you to admit to an undeniable, provable fact. You seem to accept that what I am saying is a provable fact, but you want me to agree to your analysis/argument regarding those facts as a prerequisite to admit them. That is not how honest discussions work. If something is a fact, it's a fact. We should be able to agree on that and then let the best arguments with those facts prevail.LedRush (talk) 13:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

The best way I can describe this issue is this. The way we are presently using the "generation" terms, we're talking console hardware, software, events, etc. that are encapsulated into these "generations". That's all fine and good, but then we have the problem of delineating the bounds of what those actual generations are. There is no question we have sources that say "Console A is in generation N", but we have no consist definition that says "Generation N is defined by Fact X and Fact Y". If all we were talking about in the generations article were console hardware, certainly the "Console A in Gen N" would be fine, but these are more than that, and thus we're making an original though making the jump from hardware generations to overall generations. At least if we did this by years, we have a factual basis for included things in certain periods without any original research beyond exactly how best to split up the years. --MASEM (t) 16:54, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. I've not heard the issue put in these terms before (or if I had, I'd missed it). I would stipulate to the renaming of the articles around year dates if:

• the articles remain organized largely as now: namely, by the consoles in each generation as they are now defined
• there are no efforts to scrub the term "generation" (second generation, thrid generation, etc.) from the article and an agreement that using the term "generation" to describe the consoles of a certain year grouping is not original research (assuming RSs say that x console is in y generation).LedRush (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Given that we obvious still need to break up things chronologically, the selection of which years is up to us, but as you say, it makes the most sense to use the years as defined by the current splits because consoles within those splits are most often compared against each other (eg no one compares a PS3 to a Dreamcast). And we can still say "Consoles releases from Y to Z are often considered the "Nth generation" of hardware. 99% of the articles are left untouched, and heck, in the navboxes we can still leave the designation, like "YYYY-ZZZZ (Nth generation)" for clarity. If in the future the generation term becomes better defined (even if WP is the one that influences that), the switchback would be trivial. This also deals with th problem of the 3DS and NDP, with the current "7th gen" article being retitled as "(2005-present)"; until people start saying they are eighth gen (if they ever do), they happily fit the metric without new OR. --MASEM (t) 16:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

As an interrum change, that's fine. Long-term, they should go the way of pc games, unless we also want to start changing them to go the same way as video games. It seems like their is a bias here in giving console/handheld games "special treatment" when compared to pc games when they too have had historic divisions.陣内_Jinnai 02:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

How are PC games done? I can't see a way different than the current one that makes sense for video games, but perhaps something could be ok.LedRush (talk) 00:43, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I'd say a basis for starting would be to look at History of personal computers.

Beyond that, there are couple other sources like:

this one (yes its primarly about educational games, but in order for them to talk about pc games, they have to go into a general background history)

NASA guide similar divisions here

I would show you more, but the rest are unreliable or use the terms PC game and video game so losely that they do not distinguish one from the other (including many of the reliable sources), even for early games.陣内_Jinnai 01:45, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I went there and looked at the articles and I don't see any helpful structures there. In fact, any disruption to the current format would have to have quite dramatic and compelling reasoning as the history of video games loses much of its meanings when consoles from the same generations are not discussed and presented in relation to each other. But this is a discussion for another time and another board.LedRush (talk) 04:54, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I can if you want show a majority of sources linking PC games with video games in as one in the same for purposes of historical dissucion. My point being there is no generally accepted timeline. There are a multitude of them.陣内_Jinnai 21:18, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The difficulty here is that these "generations" have no firm definition. You can't say that "a third generation console is one that has a 16 bit CPU bus" or something like that. The definitions are by enumeration. There is indeed some kind of general acceptance of the term "Seventh generation" as meaning "The Wii, Xbox 360 and the PS-3" - but that's not a definition, it's an enumeration of members. It's as if biologists were to define the term "mammal" as "A mouse, a rabbit, a fox, a chimpanzee..<several pages>..or a sealion". That definition-by-enumeration is problematic because if you discover a new animal (or a new game console is released) you have no way to decide whether it's a mammal or not (or whether it constitutes an additional member of the list of third-generation consoles). For biologists, that would be a horrible way to proceed - and so it is for us. If we split console history up by generations and someone writes a new article about a 1970's Czechoslovakian game console - then how do we fit that into the "history of..." articles? We'd have to find at least one contemporary RS that said "The XYZZY-2000 is a fourth generation console"...but suppose we can't find such a source? (That wouldn't be a surprise - because it's Czechoslovakian). How do we know which 'generation' it belongs in? If the generations had firm definitions (such as Vehicle size class does for automobiles) - then there would be no problem. We'd merely have to look up the specification of the machine in RS and we'd know where to place it.

Sadly, we don't have such a clear-cut definition, so we can only place consoles into their proper place into the "history of..." articles if we can find an RS that assigns them (more or less arbitrarily - and certainly at the whim of an individual magazine writer) to a particular generation - otherwise we're screwed. Splitting the history into time periods is a much more sensible approach because it requires us only to find the year the machine was released in - and that's a much simpler proposition.

Let's put this in a concrete example. Suppose Nintendo announces a successor to the Wii (The Wii-II or something) - let's suppose it's less powerful than the PS-3 or Xbox-360 (a reasonable supposition)...but it's new. Is it eighth generation or still seventh? We can't say because we don't have a RS yet...instead we're left waiting while the fanboys of the various consoles duke it out with the reviewers. Argh!

SteveBaker (talk) 14:52, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

If the above two comments are indicative of the types of changes to be accepted, I do not consent to any compromise but will instead push for arbitration on this issue. Despite obstinant claims to the contrary, there are RSs with definitions for the generations, and these definitions do seperate the consoles effectively.

Also, I don't understand why we would want to break up the sections of the history of video games articles that compare the consoles from different generations. We have tons of RSs which compare intra-generation properties without a mention of the PCs and their games. Jinnai's last comment, specifically, looks like an attempt to subvert Wikipedia's policy on articles and introduce a huge amount of OR. I do not want to compare the PC games to the difference generations unless there are RSs for it. As I said above, any disruption to the current format for the history of video games would have to have quite dramatic and compelling reasoning as the history of video games loses much of its meanings when consoles from the same generations are not discussed and presented in relation to each other.LedRush (talk) 16:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually on the Wii, I've found some RSes that acknowledge that there is still ongoing debate what "generation" it should be; those were late last year and acknowledged that it is ongoing in the community as a whole, ie forums. Point is, even for the supposed 7th gen where everyone agrees, everyone doesn't. There is now not even 1 generation you can show that everyone agrees.

As far as next step, I'd hate to say it, but it seems that since you seem to want to be ignore core policies to push a POV and ignore anything that contradicts it (like the PC divisions which they DO divide into terms similar to how some use video game console generation). This discussion hasn't helped and RfC seems if anything to be in favor of my proposal - to divide similar to PC games (while acknowledging some consoles are listed as X generation in the prose), but somehow I think you'll not acknowledge that.陣内_Jinnai 22:20, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Please show me these RSs which contradict which generation the Wii is in. The fact remains, virtually every source agrees on the generations, and your months long crusade against this position has produced no evidence to the contrary.

Furthermore, your insistence on conducting OR in defense of your positions is further evidence that you don't have any. I still don't know why you'd want to rip up the history of video games articles into different divisions than currently exist and therefore make them lost most of their meaning.LedRush (talk) 01:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

WRONG. You have chosen to ignore or dismiss any source I propose; its frankly for this issue impossible for me to assume good faith with you because any source I do produce you say it doesn't state what I say when it clearly does; in addition you also refuse to acknowledge that you are using synthesis to come with your nailing down of every console to a specific generation. I'm not alone; others also agree with me so quit saying its my personal crusade. If it was, then why do others agree with me and why cannot you show a clear method of how to define a 7th generation? Frankly you've done very little at all to prove that your position isn't sythensis and instead just keep spouting the same mantra. I've done more to prove my point by showing sources and the fact that you dismiss them out-of-place shows your on a crusade to keep this the status quo.陣内_Jinnai 02:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

The only uninvolved editor here agreed that what we currently do on the history of video games is not OR or Synth, but what you propose is. It doesn't get clearer than that. I give a scholarly article which defines generations, and you ignore it because it isn't precise enough for you. You try to conduct further OR to dispute that RS. Almost every source agrees on which consoles go in which generation, yet you stubbornly refuse to acknowledge WP policy on the issue.

Despite your lack of good faith, your inability to listen to uninvolved editors, and your refusal to follow WP policy, I conceded above that we can lose this extremely well sourced and undeniably compliant term (generation) so long as the general structure of the articles remained, as several people before had suggested. However, you took the opportunity not to seek compromise, but to further insult me and try and cram bad article decisions that will obfuscate more than enlighten our readers. I ask, yet again, for mediation if you cannot deal with this issue in an open and honest way with room for compromise.LedRush (talk) 06:25, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't ignore it. Let's stick with facts, not your conjecture. I acknowledge that it does list video game consoles by generation. However, unlike you, I do not assume without any proof that anyone else uses that model for generations and I especially don't assume without any proof' that we can ignore synthesis and take 2 sources which in no way have any connection nor do they list the same basic facts (even for 6th generation) and make the leap that another source = 7th generation because it lists a few (note not all) of the consoles that source list. Those listing a console as X generation on other sites have been shown inconstant enough (even by your results, let alone others) that it cannot be claimed they use that site as a basis for their "generation" listing".

I also, unlike you, don't assume without any proof that the source listing 3 6th gen sources and 3 7th gen soruces is merely leaving out some 6th generation consoles. You cannot verify that that is the case and therefore any leaps to make that source stick is synthesis because the latter doesn't even define what is a 7th generation console.

You have completely ignored uninvolved editors, when there were some that showed up in the RfC (one of whom SteveBaker recently posted here) nor uninvolved editors who disagreed with you here such as HandThatFeeds when he did not agree with you. You dismissed their claims like you are trying to mine, except unlike them, I'm not willing to roll over and let you continue to violate WP:NOR simply because it is the status quo.

As for the compromise, as I said, for an interrum change that's fine, but all it does is have a window dressing over the real issue - that there is legitimate dispute about video game history - including whether to seperate consoles, handhelds and PC games (yes many video game histories do not distinquish between PC games and video game console games).

That is the crux of my argument. You are merely assuming info to help fill in the gaps and assuming sources are commonly cited (without mentioning them specifically) of something that has shown a history of having inconsistency in how it is chronicled and using those "assumptions" to create scenerio that leaves the status quo largely intact. I am not saying no one uses generations, but as [User:SteveBaker|SteveBaker]] points out, it seems largely analgous, to the "Supercar" definition; something that is appears to be a peacock term that doesn't have hard rules consistently applied across most, if not all, sources.陣内_Jinnai 10:42, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

If you spent half as much time reading WP policy or doing simple research into this subject as you do in writing vitriolic diatribes filled with illogical and unsupported arguments, you'd sound far less silly than you currently do. I have provided much proof above, and anyone here merely need scroll up to see it. I have made no assumptions and conducted no original research. Perhaps when you can find your own RSs which contradict the numerous others presented that directly conflict with your opinions, you can post them here. But be careful, last time you did that you helped my argument more than you hurt it.

However, your insistence at ignoring WP policy, your continued uncivil behavior, and your refusal to even acknowledge any evidence which contradicts your view leads me to believe that mediation is the only way forward.LedRush (talk) 10:58, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

tl;dr, but I have been peaking in on this discussion. If the "proof" is that current gen consoles are in the 7th generation, it ignores the problem that this debate is much more complicated than just the current generation. Unfortunately, if the generation divide was created by Wikipedia, it should be easy to find sources that place current generation consoles in a specific generation; it's finding older sources that place prior consoles in numbered generations taht would prove more problematic. —Ost (talk) 23:09, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

There are tons of sources for the earlier generations as well (you can check the links to the content discussions on other pages). There are also a few sources for the definition of the term "generation". The issue is that some editors believe that we need one RS with every single generation laid out and a definition of "generation" that they like or else it is OR and SYNTH.LedRush (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

From the sources I have seen, your interpretation of the problem seems to ignore that many of the sources exist after the Wikipedia article or that sources use terms like "next generation" or "previous generation" inconsistently. This is more an issue of prior SYNTH rather than current SYNTH, and if nothing else it would be nice to have some consensus on the demarcation of the generations. I agree that multiple sources should generally be used to create a complete picture of the generations and also understand that if there were prior synth, it may be too late to change as it has become common vernacular. If there are exceptions in the definitions of generations, would it be possible to create an article that lists conforms with most of the sources and has an additional section that discusses the controversial categorization of some consoles? —Ost (talk) 16:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

For my argument I don't depend on any sources which use either the term "next generation" or "previous generation": I only depend on sources which say a certain console is in a specific, numbered generation (e.g., second generation, third generation, etc.). If you agree that it is not synth to say source #1 says that these consoles are in X generation and source #2 says that these different consoles are in Y generation, than we are in agreement.LedRush (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
So, we almost had a compromise, and it looks like it got derailed... or at least side-tracked. Is this salvageable? ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 11:33, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I am willing to compromise, but it seems that Jinnai has taken a new, and much more extreme position and is using this discussion as a pretext to enact it. In light of this information, I am afraid that any compromise on these points will lead to a serious deterioration in both the quality of the articles and the accessibility of them to new readers.LedRush (talk) 19:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Not the one that's been proposed at least. I am standing by that at least video games should conform to what computer games have been forced to conform to, inspite evidence to the contrary (i submitted it inspite being dismissed by LedRush who i believe is biased against anything that fundimentally changes the nature of the articles setup). Also, while it seems some editors at WP:V were fine with this not violating WP:CIRCULAR, the larger body beyond it also seems more concered.

As I mentioned though, I'm not against in the proposed setup (which was proposed by someone other than me originally) that mention could be made that console X is generally considered Y generation.陣内_Jinnai 03:29, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

While I see Jinnai's words, I'm not sure I understand what he's trying to say. It seems that he's ok with saying that certain consoles are regarded as being in certain generations, which is good as it is completely verifiable info in RSs. However, in dropping his OR claims, it seems he has made one of circularity, an argument which I have not seen before. Perhaps I have not seen it because it is demonstrably false. The first citation in this topic is from a 2002 book which clearly defines what a "generation" of video gaming consoles is and has a table placing some popular consoles within each generation (at that time there were only 6). As that book was published in 2002, and in January 2003 the history of video gaming article [10] was a stub which had been edited about 10 times and which did not use the term generation, I am not sure how there is a circularity issue.LedRush (talk) 13:15, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

I am willing to allow something like "console X is generally labeled as generation Y" as a good faith attempt to find a compromise. However, I stand by that sectioning it by generation when there for many consoles disagreement, especially as one goes back in time and there is no clear criteria what makes up a "7th generation console", plus there have been others (not myself mostly so stop trying to twist the facts and make it look like its everyone vs. me) that say that there is some violation of CIRCULAR, even if some sources reported it beforehand, they didn't do so for every system before we started using generation. I went and showed this at WT:VG. The bottom line is there's no clear classification system for what is nth generation. I'd really prefer that we not include any generation info for specific consoles, but as i said before, I'm willing to make a good faith compromise.陣内_Jinnai 01:36, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Your compromise is laughable. We have huge amounts of verifiable, reliable sources which state info. It is a serious breach of WP policy not to allow a statement like "system x is general considered in generation y". You've compromised nothing, except possibly, the possibility that I can consider your arguments are made in good faith.

And repeating demonstrably false claims doesn't make them true. We have only seen a very few sources which disagree on a few consoles concerning their placement in generations. Per Wikipedia policy, this issue should be addressed in the article by describing and citing the significant minority view. There has been no evidence given that I have seen that there are multiple sources which disagree with our current presentation of the generations, and therefore none would even rise to the level of meriting mention. Jinnai's positions are so far away from standard WP policy that it's hard to compromise with it without subverting Wikipedia itself. However, I think the compromise that Masem and I reached is a reasonable one.LedRush (talk) 02:29, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Leonard Cohen biography

The "Final concert" in the 2010 North American tour was not held in San jose. It was a two night presentation at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas on Dec. 10 & 11, 2010 (I was in attendance). The San Jose concert was held on Dec. 9. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.2.243 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural reference on Chuck

This is what happens in the episode "Chuck Versus the Final Exam": Chuck sits in a steam room, a guy comes in and says there's a message for Ivan Drago, Chuck talks to himself and says "Ivan Drago is here, seriously?" (says that kinda annoyed) The article says that this is a cultural reference to Rocky IV, were there is a character Ivan Drago. Ambaryer says on his talk page that this is so obvious and that Ivan Drago is so identifiable with Rocky IV that it is no longer original research. I believe that WP:OR's "Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so." applies here, and this requires a secondary source. _Xeworlebi ^(talk) 20:30, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

If the character had been named "Austin Powers," "Jack Bauer," or "James Bond" there would be not question of the reference, as they are all identifiable with those particular properties. The case is the same for Ivan Drago, which even Wikipedia automatically links to Rocky IV with no need for a disambiguation page.Ambaryer (talk) 20:59, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

A Google search, quickly returns plenty of sources confirming this as a cultural reference to Rocky IV choose a particularly reliable one and source it - problem solved. Stuart.Jamieson (talk) 21:04, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Honda D engine

Hi there,

i get lost in this maze of administration pages, this one is the closest i've located for my concern: it looks like i've become instantly unpopular after a major clean-up of the said article, starting here, along with a comment posted in its talk page at Talk:Honda_D_engine#Major_clean-up (and, as a bonus, this one). My reason for posting here is that i feel that the page is not monitored closely, so i am calling to its attention, if anyone cares and has the time. Thanks in advance for any assistance. I wonder whether the page should be semi-protected. --Jerome Potts (talk) 22:17, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Spector & Associates

Spector & Associates please visit the page... It should be removed no info ? Jonathangluck (talk) 03:40, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] List of the biggest selling R&B/Hip Hop albums of all time in the United States

I came across this page today and want to know if it is OK, it looks like it could be a verbatim copy of the "Recording Industry Association of America.", however I can't find any source for the material. Mtking (talk) 01:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

This query is in regards to List of the biggest selling R&B/Hip Hop albums of all time in the United States. This list curently lacks references. The page history shows it was prodded in 2007, but removed by Crypticfirefly (talk · contribs).[11] Contributions show user as currently active; I will make contact and invite the user to this discussion. Viriditas (talk) 09:50, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Conducting surveys or a tally on Wikipedia

A user on the Bigfoot discussion page has suggested we create a tally intended to have scientists list their names on either a "for" or "against" list regarding the possiblilty of Bigfoot's existence. The user intends to show that the majority viewpoint of the scientific community is actually in favor of the possibility that Bigfoot is real. I have informed the user that such a survey or tally would probably be a gross violation of WP policy, but I have had no luck in finding anything specifically addressing the issue. Would this violate WP:OR as well as any other policies? If so, could someone cite the relevant text? Thanks Racerx11 (talk) 03:18, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

It is just silly and not worth taking time discussing. There are umpteen websites that the user could use - Facebook for example - and they could just go ahead and do it. But who's going to check the "scientists'" identities and credentials? At the end, the results won't be usable on Wikipedia. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Of course the whole thing is silly, but is the answer to my question; there is, or there is not specific language in WP policies that forbid creating such a survey or tally on a Wikipedia page? In other words, what prevents someone from using Wikipedia to solicit opinions for the purposes of their own research? Racerx11 (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:NOT. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Proofreading

Over the past year or so I have greatly expanded the Proofreading article. It is now based entirely on my own experience over many years and as such it is original research. I deliberately wrote it in a polemical vein in hopes that it would generate a good discussion-level and be a rallying point among proofreaders everywhere. But nothing of the sort happened. Although it has respectable page view stats, the article has generated almost no discussion in general and none whatever about my expansion of it, and few even accesses that page at all. And the article remains unrated. I suspect that its actual readership is nill because most viewers are looking for practical tools and advice for their own projects. I doubt if they are on the page for more than a few seconds.

Lately editor Ckatz has begun to delete the sections I wrote on the grounds of original research, and adding various template messages (there are now three). To my knowledge he is the only other regular follower of the article except myself. Since virtually the entire article is original research, I propose that either it be reduced to a stub (which is what it would be minus my contributions) or all his deletions be reverted; or 2) the entire article be reduced to a stub and my past contributions be legitimized in the form of an external link to a copy of my contributions that I created on Google's Knol website; or 3) the article be reduced to a stub and left that way with no such link. BruceSwanson (talk) 20:45, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing to stop you taking any of those three routes; you don't need approval from this noticeboard (though it might be a good idea to raise your points on the article's Talk page). But it strikes me that the best solution all round, which would mean your work was not wasted while answering Ckatz's concerns, would be to start adding references. I'll also mention WP:OWN, merely because someone else is bound to if I don't! Barnabypage (talk) 20:52, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Good advice, but there are no references for me to add -- that's the problem. Also I raised the issue here because I doubt anyone (other than Ckatz) would see it if I posted it on the discussion page. BruceSwanson (talk) 21:09, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of books on proofreading and I imagine professional journals or newsletters too; do none of them make any of the points you made? Barnabypage (talk) 21:42, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

What you're suggesting is that I engage in legitimate research for free. True, I could get a smattering of references from various legitimate-seeming sources, but what a thankless task. The books are unreadable, dishonest, and beyond the bare fundamentals of little practical value. It simply wouldn't be any fun going through them -- never mind citing them -- and after I was done no one would thank me for it.

The important question here is: does anyone actually read the article? If you look at the stats for Paul McCartney and then look at the stats for his discussion page, you realize that by comparison very few people ever look at it or comment on it.

Based on that extreme example, we might make an assumption that the proofreading article is in fact being read every day in spite of its lack of discussion activity. Taking that readership and the lack of discussion as a measure of acceptance, we might actually re-frame this evaluation onto the three template-messages at the top of the article. If the goal is to remove them, then the article itself must be changed based on their principles. As a practical matter that means reducing the article to a stub, if only for the moment. On the other hand, if the messages can be left in place, why should Ckatz or any other single editor delete on their whim sections from the article that exemplify those messages? It makes no sense. Either enforce the messages and then remove them by changing the article, or leave them and the article in place. Right? BruceSwanson (talk) 00:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

re..."What you're suggesting is that I engage in legitimate research for free"... um... YES... that is exactly what we are suggesting ... that is what editing Wikipedia is. If you don't want to do legitimate research for free, you should not edit Wikipedia. Blueboar (talk) 03:46, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

My point is that the research would be fruitless. BruceSwanson (talk) 14:28, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Even if it resulted in a better article? Itsmejudith (talk) 15:14, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Would readers be best served by deleting my original research, leaving only a stub (with or without an external link) until someone (feel free to volunteer) performs the drudgery of expanding it from published sources? Or would they be better served by ignoring the original research rule, leaving the template messages intact, and reverting Ckatz's deletions?

Our readers would be best served by having an article that was grounded in good research and backed by citations to reliable sources. Blueboar (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, IAR is for exceptional circumstances, and this strikes me as a pretty mundane issue. I'm not sure what BruceSwanson means by "the research would be fruitless". Either there are sources or there aren't, and if there aren't, reducing the article to what can be sourced is appropriate. If sources are to be found, great, use them and there's no problem left to solve (at least on that one issue). --Nuujinn (talk) 23:37, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Accurate representation of a source

A dispute has arisen on whether a source is being represented accurately. The discussion is here [12] The text, presently in the article, reads: the TM movement has "had to weather allegations of being a cult", which implies criticism. The paragraph in its entirety is: “Though the TM movement, which claims to have taught six million people worldwide, has over the years had to weather allegations of being a cult, today meditation, in all its many forms, has become as acceptable as yoga and herbal medicine. There is one particularly non-spiritual reason for this: medical science. While claims about its benefits were for a long time purely anecdotal, clinical research is providing evidence that meditation has real health benefits for those who practise."

Discussion concerns whether the sentence the TM movement has "had to weather allegations of being a cult". used in an isolated way is an accurate reflection of the source per WP: NOR: Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Thanks.--Luke Warmwater101 (talk) 00:33, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

To expand, the material in question is in the "Characterization as a cult, sect, or religion" section of Transcendental Meditation movement. I had deleted the additional material because it concerns neither the TM movement nor the characterizations of the movement as a "cult, sect, or religion". I'd be happy to see the material on "meditation, in all its many forms" in an appropriate article, like Meditation or even Transcendental Meditation technique.   Will Beback  talk  01:53, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

To complete the text's history (alluded to above)-- I made the initial edit on 10/19/10 when I added the following text and ref:

• The London Times reported in 2005 that over the years the TM movement has "had to weather allegations of being a cult" and become as "acceptable as yoga and herbal medicine". Source: London Times, A Peace of His Mind, Sharon Krum, Sept 3 2005[13] [14]

Will Beback then changed the text on 2/8/11 to this version:

• The Times of London reported in 2005 that over the years the TM movement has "had to weather allegations of being a cult". Source: A Peace of His Mind|first=Sharon |last=Krum|date=September 3 2005|work=The Times [15]

Will Beback's edit summary says he "removed content about meditation in general" he goes on to say on the Talk Page: "We only add material relevant to the topic at hand, not everything contained in a source or even everything in a sentence." [16] See complete discussion here[17] In my opinion the remaining text appears to mis-represent the source and creates POV. What do others think?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:54, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Remember the topic is Transcendental Meditation movement, and specifically characterization of the TMM as a cult, sect, or religion. The article is not about the practice of meditation. What does this have to do with that topic? "today meditation, in all its many forms, has become as acceptable as yoga and herbal medicine. There is one particularly non-spiritual reason for this: medical science. While claims about its benefits were for a long time purely anecdotal, clinical research is providing evidence that meditation has real health benefits for those who practise." The health benefits of meditation are covered at great length in Transcendental Meditation technique, Transcendental Meditation research, and more generally, at Meditation and Research on meditation. Keithbob and Luke Warmwater101 seem to be suggesting that anytime we cite a source we need to summarize everything that source says on any topic. That's obviously not how an encyclopedia is written. Instead, articles and sections are devoted to specific topics, and we report what sources say about those topics. The source in question is about TM advocate David Lynch - should we also be summarizing, in the section on cult, sect, or religion, what the author says about him? That'd be absurd.   Will Beback  talk  21:13, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Simple calculations

I am currently in a discussion with an editor at an RFC at Talk:List of states with limited recognition.

The key question is about the number of states that recognise a given entity, whether and how it should be listed. I have concerns with NPOV here, but I will leave those out on this forum and deal strictly with OR concerns. The example we are using is Abkhazia, but this is purely for the sake of discussion since the principle applies to several entities.

So, there is dispute as to whether the article should say that seven states recognise Abkhazia. Abkhazia is recognised diplomatically by:

• Russia
• Nicaragua
• Venezuela
• Nauru
• South Ossetia (recognised only by the above four, plus Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Transnistria)
• Nagorno-Karabakh (recognised only by Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transnistria)
• Transnistria (recognised only by Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia)

All of those can be sourced, and the basic facts of this list are not (I believe) disputed.

It is argued that it is a simple mathematical calculation (1+1+1+1+1+1+1) per WP:CALC to get seven here. My OR concern is that interpretation is required in that calculation: specifically, the interpretation that South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh and Transnistria should be included given their own relative lack of international recognition. This is demonstrated by the fact that, while the value of seven is unsourced, it is trivially easy to find another value, four, in sources: [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25]. Even the Abkhazian government gives the number as four (though they explicitly count UN member states). All of these were written since December 2009 (when Nauru recognised Abkhazia); based on the recognition dates provided by the article International recognition of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, the methodology above would give either six or seven during this period.

The question: given the above, is it original research to say that seven states recognise Abkhazia? Pfainuk talk 20:04, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Probably best to think of it as avoidable. If the states are listed then readers can count for themselves. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:08, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

It is not OR, but it is POV, because it implies that all the states are recognized states, and therefore overstates the degree of recognition. TFD (talk) 20:20, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, given that some of the nations are not themselves widely recognized, I'd veer away from providing a number based on that list. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 22:22, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Yellowstone and Yellowstone Lake

User:Lkmen, currently blocked for 48 hours for edit warring on this, has repeatedly added the following (with variations) to both the Yellowstone and Yellowstone Lake articles. [26] A number of editors, including myself, have reverted these edits on WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:OR grounds. Additionally, we've given Lkmen advice about how to proceed with this controversial material until such time as the wider community reaches a consensus on it. [27] Lkmen has not followed that advice and has consistently contended that this material does not run afowl of our OR, NPOV and RS policies. [28]

== Yellowstone in Major Religions == === In [[Islam]] === Some '''[[Muslims]]''' believe that Yellowstone was mentioned in '''[[Qur'an]]''' 18:86. They believe that there was before '''[[Mohammad]]''' long time ago, a great leader or prophet was named '''Thoo al Qarnain''' who went to the far west until he reached a hot spring of water which has a black clay, and then he was able to see the sunset on this lake or spring of water, which means that this lake or spring of water is large enough to see the sunset on it, like what they see when they watch the sunset on a sea. They also believe that he found a people near it, then '''[[Allah]]''' had commanded him to rule these people by the law of '''[[Allah]]''' according to the Qur'an. So they believe now that these people were the ancient predecessors of the '''[[Native Americans in the United States|Native Americans]]''', who were living near Yellowstone lake for about 11,000 years. All these beliefs were based on '''[[Qur'an]]''' 18:86 '''"Until, when he reached the far west he saw the sunset on a hot spring of water which has a black clay, and he found near it a people".''' They also support these beliefs by how the lake looks like from the sky. They believe that the lake from air looks like a standing strong man pointing his shield towards the west or the sunset. <ref>Qur'an 18:86</ref> <ref>http://ar.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D8%B9%D9%8A%D9%86_%D8%B0%D9%8A_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B1%D9%86%D9%8A%D9%86_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A6%D8%A9&oldid=6397751</ref> <ref>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8B7DxRU2Rc</ref> <ref>Dr. Ghali's translation of the Qur'an 18:86.</ref>.

To that end, I am assisting Lkmen in a task he should have performed in seeking a wider audience for evaluating this potential contribution with the following general questions:

• Would the sources cited above be considered RS in the context of this content and its use in the Yellowstone and Yellowstone Lake articles as Lkmen proposes?
• Is this proposed content OR in the context of Yellowstone?
• Is this content consistent with our NPOV policy or as many contend (I included) believe that even if it is not OR and supported by RS, it would violate our balance policy in the context of Yellowstone?

I trust Lkmen will look to the wider evaluation and consensus of the community on this material when his block is removed two days from now. --Mike Cline (talk) 14:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Triple Goddess (Neopaganism)

There's a dispute whether Karl Kerenyi should be used as a source in the section Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism)#Origins. This section of the article reports the argument of Ronald Hutton that the Neopagan Triple Goddess is a modern creation, largely of Robert Graves. Kerenyi is then cited as an opposing view that there were triple moon goddesses in ancient Greece. However, Kerenyi was not writing in response to Hutton (Kerenyi wrote in 1952, Hutton in 1998) and was not writing about neopaganism. As far as I know, no source dealing with neopagan ideas of a triple goddess cites Kerenyi. So using Kerenyi here strikes me as an instance of WP:SYNTH. This dispute is discussed at length at Talk:Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism)#Karl_Kerenyi_on_Triple_Lunar_Goddess; more input welcome either there or here. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:01, 31 March 2011 (UTC)