just to clarify the days do NOT refer to “time off” of purgatory.  we do not know how time will work in purgatory.

instead, the time attached to an indulgence refers to its equivalent here on earth.  for example - if you did a partial indulgence of some act of charity, as well as the other requirements, that had a remittance of “20 days” - that act of charity would be the equivalent of doing 20 days of penance/fasting/etc here on earth.

hope that helps a bit

It was clear to me from this explantion that we are getting people time off of purgatory when we participate in an indulgence.  It you want to explain that in some other way other than “time off of their sentence” then it is just playing with words.

I have full belief that all of the practices and devotions attached with indulgences are good for our souls and I would hope they turn hearts towards God (and don’t become like endless meaningless recessitation of rosaries, the greater the quantity does not equate to a greater devotion)

I believe that God sees the actions as equal if you go to confession **gasp** 9 days after you complete your devotion or if you complete things in a different order.  Or if you do an act that is not listed on the official list or if you say 2 Our Fathers instead of 1 Our Father and 1 Hail Mary.  I think the official list laid out “because the church can do whatever it wants” involves some OCD—God help you if you have OCD and are stuck on indulgences.

It is medieval thinking to me—if you do this you get one person out of purgatory but not if you do not it in the time we say.  It sounds like a game with arbitrary rules,  not an act of the heart.  Grandma is stuck in purgatory because you missed the 8 days by a couple hours.  Do you really think this is the heart of God?  That he is up there counting your 8 days and watching the order you do something in and the day you complete it on?

I do ask Mary to intercede for me and give me wisdom to think about the ways of God’s heart.  I spent a long time trying to convince myself I would or could accept anything the Church said—I now admit I can not do that in good conscience.

Okay, Beth.  God bless you on your journey.  I will pray for you.

Fortunately for me practicing indulgences is not a requirement for a Catholic and the Church recognizes that other actions you do have the same end result.  For me living in excruiciating pain 24 hrs a day and offering it up I feel has done more for the advancement of souls then any check list of devotions I could do.

Beth said: “I spent a long time trying to convince myself I would or could accept anything the Church said—I now admit I can not do that in good conscience.”

I am sorry to hear that. At least you are upfront about where you are coming from. But please understand that others of us here absolutely do accept Church teaching in all things, even if we struggle to understand sometimes. I am one of them and I don’t like your sneering tone. I appreciate Fr. John’s willingness to help walk us through some of Catholicism’s more complicated teachings.

Obviously, the practice of indulgences is not a way that you are going to grow closer to God in your life right now, and as you rightly point out, the Church does not require it of you. Obedience and humility are virtues, though—both of which I think “following the rules” of indulgences helps us to practice. Submitting to Church authority, even when we don’t yet fully understand, is another way to put those virtues into practice.

If faith and family woul like to make this a place for people who only accept church teaching without question and find it offensive to question and challenge things that do not make sense to them then they need to be upfront about that.  I admit I spent a very long time reading and studying hoping it would all add up and my tone is one of exasperation.  I’ll try to quiet my writing down a bit—I do not intend to offend anyone.

I am sorry Michele you found my questions sneering at your faith.  I am really trying to sort things our for myself and be honest about what I find.  You have chosen to accept everything the Pope says without questions and that is your choice.  Please don’t close the doors for those of us at a different point in our spiritual life, God is with us too.  I think the attitude of accepting what ever the Church says has gotten us into a whole lot of trouble and I really need to pay attention to my conscience that is formed by praying and studying and counsel-I can’t leave it at the door.  Nor I am I trying to imply that you have left yours at the door.

Again let me repeat, the devotions encouraged by indulgences are very good.  It is the numbers game I can not accept.  So all in all are we really that far apart.  I believe God let Grandma out of purgatory even if you miss you time by a few hours—God really know why you missed—if you were lazy he knows that.  The Church says there is no guarentee you will get anyone out of purgatory with your practice.  One of the saints said, when in a church full of people all looking for an indulgence that only 2 would get it—just a story—but I believe you have to be detached from all venial sin in the process.

Anne,

Could you let me know how you know when the soul is out of purgatory (that is when you are praying for someone specifically)?  Or do we just keep praying for them?  If we are just offering it up for someone in general who decides who is next in line to get out and do they get out the second the priest give us absolution?

Or should we have the attitude of well I’ve been praying for Grandma to be out of purgatory 1 year (earth time) so if she is out then give it to someone else but really you could be wondering for decades if Grandma is out yet?

I think God knows the reasons you did not get to confession within 8 days—I have had times in my life where I was very sick or all of my kids were very sick.  You never know if you go and the confession line is long and Father has to say Mass and has a wedding after Mass then you really should not get upset about it.  I don’t see God up there with a watch and really there is no time in heaven.  I’m not sure what the schedule of your life is like but if you are at a place where you think your doing good if you can get all your kids dressed and fed then it is not a lack of discipline that would keep you from following all the numbers.  And really if you are at that place in your life offering up your daily struggles is more powerful and participating in indulgences is not a requirement to being Catholic—you can get self discipline, prayer and all those other good things in many other ways.

Padre Pio prayed daily for the soul of a relative of his. At some point, he received a vision of that person in Heaven. He continued to pray for his soul daily. When someone asked him why, he replied that it was through the graces obtained by daily prayer that his relative was in heaven, and that God did not have to wait for him to die to grant those graces to his relative.

We can’t know when Grandma is out of Purgatory unless she is canonized. We have not right to know the state of Grandma’s soul—that is for God alone to know and judge. Even if we fulfill the outward requirements for plenary indulgence on Grandma’s behalf, we cannot be certain that we were fully “detached from sin.” For these reasons, it’s wrong thinking to try to apply some kind of metric for getting Grandma out of Purgatory. It is much better to offer the practices of indulgences for Grandma _in_the_hope_ that they will benefit Grandma but without trying to calculate exactly how many sins Grandma committed and how many times you should offer sacrifices for her. The teaching on indulgences assures us that our prayers for the deceased are efficacious. It is not for us to know in what way or how many prayers it takes.

When we pray more generally for all the souls in Purgatory, we have absolutely no idea whom will benefit by our prayers—that is part of the humility of the prayer. If we knew which souls and how many souls and how many “years” off their time in purgatory we relieved them of, it would be a terrible temptation to pride. We pray and we hope and it really doesn’t matter if we ever find out the details.

Indulgences aren’t about the person on earth; they’re about the people in Purgatory.

It is a good and pious thing, in fact it is a spiritual work of mercy to pray for the dead. It is customary to offer several Masses shortly following the person’s death, followed by annual Masses on the anniversary of the death. When you think that we celebrate saint’s feast days on the anniversary of their deaths, it is easier to understand why we continue to pray for our loved ones even if they may be in heaven already. In fact, we pray for all the dead at every Mass—it’s right there in the Eucharistic prayers. Surely many of the dead are already in Heaven, yet we pray for them anyway out of love.

Indulgences are not about math problems, and they aren’t about keeping score, and they aren’t about knowing the state of someone’s soul. They are about charity for our Christian brethren “who have gone before us marked with the sign of Faith.”