I agree very much with your comments Alison.  I too have friends that are gay and have wondered how to handle it.  Love is always the answer. Thank you Fr. John for being a humble servant for God.  May God reward you abundantly.

I missed participating in the first discussion, but I just wanted to add a point which goes along with this comment’s POV. I do think that going to the reception and not the ceremony is kind of awkward and silly.

I think the bigger point is something else though. If you have gay friends and relatives that you really care about and love, how are you going to not attend their important days, whatever they are?  I would think that it would be best just to break off the relationship entirely and honestly.

What self-respecting gay person is going to be your friend (and I apply that to relatives too, because we can still be related to people who are not our friends) after you tell them you aren’t going to the ceremony or reception or both because they are gay?

I think to expect that you will still have these people in your lives after you reject them is unrealistic.

Ann,

I don’t know whats right or wrong. But, my concern with cutting off relationships would be the following

a) How will the lost ever come back?
b) is this making me judgemental? can I afford to be judged like I judge?
c) Where would I draw the line? I myself am a glutton. I have been overweight for most of my adult life. It is a lifestyle that Im not proud of. But, unfortunatly I continue. Should my friends abandon me because Im overweight? It definately isnt a lifestyle that God would approve of.

One thing some of the people who are using the “Love the sinner, but not the sin” phrase, to justify going to the wedding, or the reception are forgetting one thing. Yes, Christ wanted us to love all, including the sinner…He himself dined with sinners. BUT whenever he forgave a sinner and showed him/her love, he never said I love you, so I will accept your lifestyle to show my love. He said, “Your sins are forgiven. Go and SIN NO MORE.” He never accepted the sin. And those who balked at His teachings, especially of the Eucharist, He let walk away. He didn’t ask them to come back if they would just believe PART of what he was teaching, or if they would only sin once in a while. We can and must love the person, but we can never condone the sin.

I find it odd that people seem to accept or entertain behaviors such as lesbian or gay to be a topic in Catholic forums.  It’s not an acceptable behavior and I don’t think it should be a topic of anyone’s converstation or topic.  Sorry.

Hi Kristi,

I’m not advocating cutting people off.

I was just wondering for all these people who say they would never go to a gay wedding or reception, even if it was for someone they loved very much, do THEY expect not to get cut out of the gay person’s life??

For someone who is very close, perhaps a brother or a sister or even your own child, if you do not attend and support them, I would expect that not attending would result in getting cut out of their lives.

I hope everyone who thinks they have all the answers on this never has a gay child. For I would feel so sorry for that child.

Ann, I think for some people it’s all or nothing like you say, very black and white, but there are many who value relationships enough to respect the integrity of a friend who says, “I’ll be at the reception to show you I care about you and value our friendship, but I cannot attend a ceremony which I believe to be wrong.” There are many people, homosexual and heterosexual, for whom this would not mean the end of a relationship. There’s nothing dishonest about it. I have a Catholic friend who went to her brother’s reception but did not attend the fruity forest earth wedding ceremony. At the reception the family was together and it was a sign of love for the groom, even though many of them had a problem with his choice. Not showing up at all would have been a hurtful sign of rejection. They still made their views clear by not attending the ceremony.

I think there is a DISTINCT difference between the situations of attending a gay “marriage ceremony” and being a “glutton” as the commenter above has described herself. It is very clear in her comments that she does not like, enjoy, or condone her own gluttonous behavior…she readily recognizes that God would NOT approve and that she has STRUGGLED with this her whole life. THAT is the difference!
On one hand, there is a person who has temptation in their life and often falls under it…but they are contrite, they are remorseful, they are NOT satisfied IN THEIR SINFULNESS.
On the other hand, as in an outright ceremony of a actively homosexual union…this is saying “WE LOVE OUR SIN”...or worse yet, “WE ARE NOT SINNING”...that is the problem.
As faithful Catholics, we can not involve ourselves in a situation where someone is trying to ensue us into acting as though their sin is valid or insignificant…homosexual behavior is sinful. We KNOW that. We can love a person who falls under these temptations just as much as we love a person who falls under fornication or adultery or theft…however…if the thief or the adulterer tries to “bring us on board” by living as a blatant sinner and being comfortable in their sin…then we have a serious issue at hand.
A person who is a glutton and is trying to gain self-control and seek God’s forgiveness, grace, help, and healing is one thing…a BLATANT homosexual, who is not only NOT uncomfortable in their sin, but wishes to publicly CELEBRATE it in the face of God, friends, and family…and QUITE another matter…and we can neither condone, nor validate that.

I agree Father, no penance necessary!  You grappled a very tricky topic in which church teaching can be tough to apply.

(Is “grappled” a word?  I think I meant to say “tackled”!)

Yes, grapple is a word - usually “grapple with”. It means to wrestle with, tackle, to try to understand a difficult idea. Which I think is spot on in this context

Thanks Andrea!  Sometimes I feel like I’m brain-dead.

Beth,
I realize that this may be a sensitive topic, but the Catholic Church does not teach that homosexual individuals are evil…it does teach that homosexual actions (not inclinations) are disordered & sinful.  It is out of love for their temporal & eternal welfare that the Church must speak this truth in love & charity, but without compromise.
God bless—

You are right Patricia I should have phrased the differently—they know how evil the Church teaches their lifestyle and actions to be.  They have very clearly heard it over and over again.

No question the Church should speak the truth in charity and without compromise—never did I imply otherwise.

Each individual should form their conscience and determine how God is calling them to live this out with their relationship with homosexual friends and relatives.  There is not a black and white teaching with all the issues this subject involves.  Evidently, by us constantly letting them know how evil their actions and lifestyles are there has not been much change of heart.  Personally I am opting for as different strategy and it annoys me that some consider it a compromise.

If I had to do it again I would have attended my gay co-workers bridal shower.  I believe in the long run it would have born much more fruit.  My only goal is that she know and love God.  Would I go to a gay wedding reception—unlikely but hard to say because I am not and most likely never will be invited to one. 

The ironic thing is that all this discussion and argument has occurred over this subject yet .001 percent of you will actually be invited to a gay wedding.  Thats right very few of you will even be invited because we have done a good job of keeping the homosexuals out of our lives for the most part.  I know some of you have relationship with them but most don’t.  Chanting the Catholic teaching is not going to bring a change of heart.

OOPPSSS—big error—I meant to say my gay co-workers BABY shower.  I was never invited to her bridal shower nor do I think she even had one

I agree, I would be okay with going to a baby shower.  Just as I would be okay going to a baby shower of a single teenage mom.  I don’t condone unmarried teenage relations, but once the baby is conceived, it deserves to be celebrated and provided for.

It is my belief Leah that the majority of conservative Catholics do not have any meaningful relationship with any homosexuals.  I am not being passive aggressive just stating things as I see them.  In no way did I imply that there are not individuals like you out there.  Prayers for you that the love of Christ can show thru you and bring the hearts of all those around you into a relationship with God.

Beth,

Unfortunately since this is a text-based conversation, I can reference what you said very easily: “My guess is that not one of the individuals who responded harshly is close to a homosexual”. NOT ONE.

That statement does, indeed, “imply that there are not individuals like you out there.” It is an incredibly arrogant, assumptive, dismissive thing to say in the first place, as though if ONLY we who disagreed with the good Father were close to a homosexual person, then of course we would agree with your opinion on this matter. It also implies that unless a Catholic has a close relationship with a homosexual person, their opinion on this matter does not count unless it agrees with yours.

I apologize—my fault—I need to be more careful about how I word things.

I do still believe that most orthodox Catholics have no relationship with homosexuals.

Leah, have you been invited to one of your gay friend’s weddings?  I still stand that only .001 percent of faithful Catholics are even invited.  My point being people raked this priest over the coals for a situation that is very rare.

Certainly people can weigh in on it if they do not know a homosexual but I think there is something to have a close family member or friend and having to really handle the situation.

Beth—I agree with you completely about the challenges that these kinds of situations raise. Several years ago Faith and Family magazine ran an “ask the priest” kind of column in which the priest advised people to refuse to acknowledge any relationship with adopted children of gay male relatives. This seemed to me horrifying, and I wrote a letter to which I never received a reply—F&F doesn’t really have a letters section—but I wondered how this would feel to the innocent children adopted by the gay couple. It seemed likely to me to drive them completely away from the church, to make them feel that Christians are so mean they will cut off all family ties with innocent children through no fault of their own. I wondered if the priest would counsel a family to refuse to acknowledge a relationship with stepchildren of a divorced and remarried heterosexual relative, or similar situation. My sister’s s-i-law “married” her lesbian partner and has two children they are raising together—and they had a big blow-out Italian baptism for each of them. Should the priest have baptized them? The mother is clearly not planning to raise them to believe in the Church as the Barque of Peter, our teacher and mother… but should those young people be denied the sacramental grace they surely receive from baptism? These questions are questions I wish that I never had to ask or think about, but they become more pressing as more and more people make “alternative” “lifestyle” choices… May Christ’s peace fill our hearts, and may He come again soon!

Yes very difficult questions.  I am trying to figure out how to deal with it myself.  Really praying alot about what God wants me to do and how I should interact with the gay couples and their children that I know.

I have heard of a priest baptizing the children of a gay couple because he was very close to her parents who were going to be the God parents—He knew them well and he knew that they would do everything they could to bring these kids up knowing God.
Should he have denied the babies the grace of baptism?

I find the witness of this couple to be profound.  They are very clear with their daughter about what they believe and let her know they would not attend a wedding ceremony and why.  But yet they are deeply involved in her life and are doing what they can to be a witness to truth.  I think cutting them off would have been a wrong move.  Even her siblings have a relationship with them and they are very clear about what they believe and are raising their children to know that this is not part of God’s plan but that we are going to be present in their lives.

I agree with you Judy we all need to prayerfully consider what actions God wants us to take.  Every situation varies and there can be no black and white answer for everyone.  The problem here is that some of you must have a black and white answer.
I can see myself going either way depending on many factors but feel that if we all decide to have no contact with anyone who is gay how will they ever witness someone who is living and walking the truth? As you can see from the poster above a priest from F and F advocated for no contact with a gay relatives children (granted I do not have all the details for that)

There are many situations where I would consider no contact and definitely would not consider it not loving. However, aside from being gay many homosexuals I know have a great deal of character and virtue in other areas of their lives.  I think God recognizes this goodness and works on it.  I am going to offer compassion and understanding to my homosexual friend who has taken in her mother with dementia to care for her.  I am going to support here and encourage her.  She is caring for the sick which is corporal work of mercy.