Talk:Republic of Macedonia

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The title of this article has been established by WP:MOSMAC2. Any threads relating to the title of the article will be speedily archived.

The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be banned by an administrator from this and related articles, or other reasonably related pages. Administrators: when banning a user from an article, look up this article on the list of active general sanctions, select the relevant Arbitration case, and list the user under the Log of Bans at the page bottom; additionally, make use of {{User article ban arb}}.

Previous discussion have been archived. Editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to see also Archive1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (polls on move and intro par), 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 (April 2009 move), 17, 18, 19, 20, Old topic pages: Peer review (2004), FYROM support+comments (2006), name (2008/09), centralized discussion (2009)

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Contents 1 Automatic archiving 2 Trial unprotection proposal 3 Patron Saint 4 Bitola coat of arms 5 Coordinate error 6 Peer review request

[edit] Automatic archiving

I propose we set up automatic archiving of this talk page with a time delay of two weeks. Thoughts? J.delanoy^gabs_adds 13:44, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Good idea - go for it. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:22, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Trial unprotection proposal

I've noticed that in the few weeks since the finalising of WP:MOSMAC2, there has been very little vandalism to this page from established editors. In the interests of open-editing, protection policy suggests that articles should not remain indefinitely protected. Whilst I could not countenance move-unprotection and believe move=sysop should remain default, I'd like to propose a trial of unprotection to allow anonymous editing here again. If excessive vandalism occurred, we could apply standard protection practices, up to and including an eventual to indefinite edit=autoconfirmed. I invite thoughts here. Fritzpoll (talk) 16:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I think it's worth it to give it a try. J.delanoy^gabs_adds 16:43, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

And the lion will lay down with the lamb... (Taivo (talk) 22:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC))

Anyone want to start a sweepstake to guess how long it'll be before re-semi-protection is required? -- ChrisO (talk) 22:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

... I'll take that as that you think it's a bad idea? J.delanoy^gabs_adds 22:20, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's just say it's been tried before – just as unprotecting George W. Bush and Barack Obama was tried a few times as well. But if you want to spend all day reverting blankings, search-and-replace insertions of "FYROM" and "Skopje" and posted rants about how Macedonia is Greek, feel free. This article has been ground zero for a lot of racial and nationalist hatred ever since it was created. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll put my money on six hours, ChrisO. Because J.delanoy will pull protection just before he goes to bed, then discover the situation when he wakes up. (Taivo (talk) 00:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

What the hell prompted that? J.delanoy^gabs_adds 03:37, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO was taking bets... ;) (Taivo (talk) 05:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

I meant, saying that I would unprotect it right before I go to bed? J.delanoy^gabs_adds 12:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this only means that Taivo may well need a little more sleep and a little less worrying about RoM-related edit-warring. My personal, but not expert, opinion is that he was just projecting. Dr.K. logos 14:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

LOL. Chill, J.delanoy. It was just a guess and light comment, not a judgment on your personal habits or Wikipedia practice. Since Wikipedia is pretty much a MMORPG, there's nothing personal involved. I don't have any reason to doubt your sincerity or seriousness.  :) (Taivo (talk) 17:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC))

(Removed Anon IP anti-Macedonia rant that Smarkflea refers to below) (Taivo (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2009 (UTC))

I suppose you are also disgusted by the fact there is an Athens in Georgia. Get over your-self...Smarkflea (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Not unless people in Athens, Georgia start claiming that they're all descendants of Pericles or, worse yet, that Pericles was an American. You are confusing nationalism with misguided, over-eager attempts to protect Greek history. In fact, given that the ancient Greek civilization formed the basis on which European history and the entire Western civilization was formed, it is not just a matter of Greek history, but a matter of world history as a whole. Nikos P. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.219.108.16 (talk) 08:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Patron Saint

National patron saints are not like football teams--there isn't one for every major city. There might be city or regional patron saints, but that doesn't deserve mention on the national page. It's a question of scope. A country has one patron saint, not a set of them. Most countries (like the U.S.) have no patron saint. At this point, Tomica, you need to provide a reference, I think, since you haven't been able to list a single official patron saint for Macedonia. I respect the religious devotion of the Macedonians, but for Wikipedia purposes, the patron saint label in the template isn't for every saint that a Macedonian church is named after. It isn't even for every saint that a Macedonian denomination accepts as its principal saint. It's for a saint that is widely accepted on a national level as the saint that specifically watches over the country of Macedonia. (Taivo (talk) 11:51, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

To count as a patron saint, there must be a reliable source that says, "Saint X is the patron saint of Macedonia" or something similar. "Patron Saint" implies something official, not popular. For example, the Archangel Michael is the patron saint of Kyiv, Ukraine--his statue stands above the old city gate, his likeness is on the city flag, there are stories about his patronage, etc. (Taivo (talk) 22:50, 20 September 2009 (UTC))

[edit] Bitola coat of arms

I see that the city of Bitola does not have a coat of arms in the demographics table, as well as some other cities. Please update the coat of arms column with the correct images. Thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiderwebmkd (talk • contribs) 18:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Coordinate error

Coordinates in this article may need fixing. WikiProject Geographical coordinates and tools on Obtaining geographic coordinates may help. See Manual of Style on how to format coordinates. Replace the {{geodata-check}} template with {{tlc|geodata-check}} when the request has been accepted or rejected.

The coordinates need the following fixes:

• Write here

203.0.223.244 (talk) 03:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review request

You may notice a new header this morning, as I have requested a peer review of the article content. Since MOSMAC2, the article and its associated disambiguation page have calmed down considerably. With the argument over the title quelled somewhat, I think it important that efforts be made to address the content itself. I have requested outside review because I think that's helpful. I think there are some areas for discussion:

• Structure: There are too many headings - the TOC is enormous, and there are lots of very short sections that could quite easily be merged into each other.
• Weight: Some sections, are incredibly short compared to other, less important topics within the article and that is an issue of WP:WEIGHT. Clearly in the case of some sections, such as History or Geography, we cannot include all content, but could we better organise the material into a coherent summary.
• Graphics: Galleries are discouraged on Wikipedia - I think we ought to remove it, but the open question is the use of graphics on the page as a whole, and whether we incorporate the gallery back into the main article. In general, we should align the images within the text to the right.

My comments here will be eerily familiar to anyone who has been through GA/FA - and that is my intention here - in the short-term, to improve this article to a Good Article, with the more ambitious goal of improving it to featured status. It would be the ultimate for this article - from edit warring and Arbitration to a possible place on Wikipedia's main page. Fritzpoll (talk) 09:40, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, Wikipedia cannot be peer reviewed, that is why we rely on secondary material that, hopefully, already enjoys some form of peer review. Politis (talk) 11:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

"Peer-review" isn't meant here in the academic publication sense, but in a wikipedia-internal sense: Wikipedia editors having their work informally reviewed by their Wikipedian "peers", i.e. other Wikipedians. See Wikipedia:Peer review. It's a well-established process. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:11, 9 November 2009 (UTC)