[UPDATE: OK I DID NOT EXPECT THIS]
*According to a report from Andy Martin in Hawaii, Sen Barack Obama is the illegitimate son of Frank Marshall Davis, the family friend mentioned in Dreams of My Father, Sen Obama's first memoir. This would end the question of citizenship. Read it HERE:]*
The first time I heard rumors that Sen Obama's sudden cessation of campaigning and rush to his grandmother's side in Hawaii had less to do with family and more to do with litigation, I was skeptical. The Berg v Obama lawsuit seemed incredible on the surface of it. How in the world could a candidate make it all the way through the primary season without being vetted as to his eligibility for office?
And then, Informed Lawyer began writing about the issue at The Minority Report, and I began to wonder.
Just today, he has updated the piece twice.
There are actually two different suits in question. The first, Berg v Obama, brought about by Philip J Berg, a lifelong Democrat and Philadelphia attorney, claims that Sen Obama was either born in a hospital in Kenya, not in Hawaii, and therefore under British law (which was applicable in Kenya at the time) he is not a natural-born American citizen. He further claims that Sen Obama lost whatever claim to US citizenship he might have had when his Indonesian Step-father adopted him in Indonesia, again subjecting him to Indonesian law.
"The Times Herald even reports: "the senator's grandmother, brother and sister, who live in Kenya, believe they were present during Obama's birth in the African country." Here, the Times Herald uses the word that his family 'believe' he was born in Kenya (perhaps to avoid possible law suits by Obama's Truth Squad?)."
I don't pretend to know the truth of Berg's allegations or the validity of his arguments. I suspect, from past history, that Philip Berg is a hard-core Hillary supporter, but that is just my own speculation. [note: Informed Lawyer confirms my suspicions in his piece] A video of Berg is available at this TMR article (I am not even going to TRY to embed it here with the new RS 3.0.)
From that article:
As a means of evaluating the credibility of Philip Berg, the former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania and Democratic candidate for Governor and U.S. Senate, understand that Berg represented Ellen Mariani in a RICO lawsuit against President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and other administration officials, claiming they had advanced knowledge of the 9-11 attacks.
Is Berg a nut? Well, yes, but even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and again.
Back to the trip to Hawaii.
[It appears that] "An hour or so before Obama’s announcement of his trip to grandma's house, conservative commentator and Obama critic Andy Martin was scheduled to file an emergency petition with the Hawaii Supreme Court to “release Barack Obama’s family records,” including his “birth certificate and related records.” (No additional information at this time.)".
And this:
"But Andy Martin, an anti-Obama columnist, says the real reason for Obama's emergency trip is to stop his own pursuit of birth records, including an emergency writ to the Hawaii Supreme Court to request expedited handling after a previous filing to demand that the State's Department of Health release the records. "Obama did not pay any attention to his grandmother until I showed up in Honolulu," he wrote in an email. "Suddenly she is the center of his attention. She is so central to his campaign that he has suspended it! But when Obama was here last summer he only visited his grandmother for an hour. One hour! Now he suspends his campaign for her?""
The Berg allegations, it would have seemed, were easily handled
more than a month ago. Sen Obama was given 30 days from the
September 15th filing to respond to Berg -- such response would
have ended the entire matter. Instead, Sen Obama, and his attorneys
allowed the deadline to pass, unanswered.
“They did not file answers or objections or anything else to the request for admissions we served upon them on September 15,” Berg said. “They knew the admissions were due. They knew they must object or answer specifically in 30 days. Here, they did nothing.”"
Why would he do such a foolhardy thing? He could have simply put the entire matter to rest.
Instead, he now faces the prospect of the Hawaii court system forcing the opening of his private records. Hence, the sudden trip to Hawaii to visit his ailing grandmother.
Informed Lawyer posts:
[It is quite apparent that Obama's Hawaii trip was NOT scheduled for the purpose of visiting his ailing grandmother. That was the story fed to the media and the public by an embarassed and perhaps alarmed Obama campaign. This was confirmed by a number of sources. However, it is also quite clear that Attorney Andy Martin is not working with all of his cylinders.]
What was it I said about blind squirrels? Andy Martin would appear to be another blind-squirrel Hillary Clinton supporter.
"Anthony Robert Martin-Trigona, usually known as Andy Martin (born 1945 in Middletown, Connecticut) is an American journalist, perennial candidate, and vexatious litigant. Known for anti-semitic remarks, he once ran for Congress as a Democrat of Connecticut in 1986...On October 17, 2008, Martin filed a lawsuit in a state circuit court of Hawaii against Governor Linda Lingle and health department director Dr. Chiyome Fukino seeking to verify the state's official birth certificate of Barack Obama. Months before this suit, Barack Obama had posted a scanned image of his birth certificate on one of his websites called Fight the Smears, showing his date of birth as August 4, 1961, his place of birth as Honolulu, Hawaii, and other details. Andy Martin rejects this and retorts that "I want to see a certified copy issued by the state of Hawai'i, not one issued by the state of Obama.""
So, in closing, if all of the people bringing suit against Sen Obama trying to force him to come forth with documentation that his is in fact a natural born US citizen, are partisan Democrats supporting Hillary Clinton, why is it that Republicans are being tarred with this inquiry?
And, if there is nothing to the allegations, why has Sen Obama NOT come forth with proof, and WHY has he suddenly dropped everything to address it in court in Hawaii? I doubt we will see any answers before the Nov 4th election. But, after the election will be too late.
If Sen Obama is elected, and we discover weeks later that he is ineligible to hold that office, what will happen? I can only guess that a hue and cry will arise to ignore the Constitutional provisions regarding the Presidency... a further erosion of that document.
Second American Civil War? A coup?
bobnivik October 22nd, 2008 at 11:18 a.m. CDT (link)
IF true, there are enough die-hard constitutionalists out there to make an issue of it, especially since they are the ones more likely to have guns.
Who knows what the military might do, since they would have to recognize a legitimate Commander in Chief.
"Any love letter is incomplete without a Ronald Reagan quote" --my sophomore year roommate
he has the opportunity and the ability
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 a.m. CDT (link)
to answer ALL QUESTIONS right now and avoid the whole mess.
WHY NOT DO IT?
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
I hate to even discuss the possibility of this, but....
Aaron Gardner October 22nd, 2008 at 11:36 a.m. CDT (link)
If Barrack Obama is elected to the office of POTUS and it turns out that he is indeed not a natural born citizen, it would be the responsibility of the Military to not recognize his legitimacy. The reason I say this is that the oath taken by anyone joining the military mandates that they defend the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. In defending the constitution they must defend qualifications of the Presidency as well. To not defend this would be an act of sedition if not outright treason.
"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger
"I'll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust" Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah...yes I love it that much.
The supreme court would shut him down
destroyr October 22nd, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. CDT (link)
The Democrat congress would immediately rush to vote a constitutional ammendment, but President Bush would have to sign it (fat chance) unless enough Republican congresspeople supported it to override a veto (fat chance). The proposed ammendment would go down in flames. Any Blue dog who votes for it would be out in 2010. Then we'd probably have a special election between Hillary and McCain, in which the Reagan democrats would all vote for McCain. In fact, after a debacle like that, I think most Reagan Democrats would become permanent Reagan Republicans. Long story short, it could be the most beautiful turn of events in American history. But what the hell do I know? Let's just not elect him to start with.
You might want to brush up on you Constitution before posting here again
civil_truth October 22nd, 2008 at 6:29 p.m. CDT (link)
Constitutional amendment: 2/3 House and Senate, 3/4 states
The President is out of the loop (as are the courts).
And Rightly So!
And then...
Battleshort October 23rd, 2008 at 5:07 a.m. CDT (link)
The amendment would have to be ratified by the States. (2/3 I believe) Who would be President during that failed effort?
Pro Deo Et Patria (For God and Country)
You make it sound like the whole country would try to go along with this..
Lysander the Spartan October 23rd, 2008 at 9:19 p.m. CDT (link)
I am pretty sure that 3/4 of all state legislatures would not be on board here. Nor would the House and Senate go along with this even if the Marxists to dominat e the majority of it.
Lysander
I'm glad you brought this..People?..Read the whole thing and related links
$peciallist October 22nd, 2008 at 11:25 a.m. CDT (link)
"Shields up Sulu..."
Get Christmas gifts for a Dollar...check it out
Liberalismisnotmainstream.com
Set photon torpedoes to hmmmmm.
29Victor October 23rd, 2008 at 1:04 a.m. CDT (link)
Put "yippee" on standby.
I Am Joe.
Hey Friday..you and I are gonna bring an all Startrek Youtube Open thread...
$peciallist October 23rd, 2008 at 1:21 a.m. CDT (link)
Friday Morning...it will be Awesome!
Get Christmas gifts for a Dollar...check it out
Liberalismisnotmainstream.com
That's affirmative.
29Victor October 23rd, 2008 at 1:32 a.m. CDT (link)
I wonder if we could get a couple of liberal ensigns to beam on down with us?
I Am Joe.
The Electoral College doesn't meet until 15 Dec.
Uma_Richie October 22nd, 2008 at 11:27 a.m. CDT (link)
If there is a legal problem, and Sen Obama wins, there's time to deal with it.
that way lies madness
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. CDT (link)
the answer MUST come before the election.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
I would agree
reldim October 23rd, 2008 at 11:11 a.m. CDT (link)
The answer should come before the election, but there are certainly "escape hatches" if something blows up later.
First, if revelations came out before the meeting of electors, there would probably be lawsuits all over the place designed to require those electors to cast votes for someone else. This is not a terribly attractive idea because while the electors would be prohibited from voting Obama, they would not, thereby be required to vote for McCain. We'd likely end up with Biden or Hillary since the electors would be Democrats.
Second, if the revelation comes after Dec. 15th but before Jan. 3rd, the votes for Obama would certainly be subject to challenge when counted in Congress. With Democrats in full control I'm not sure this would have any real teeth, but it would be interesting to see them vote to uphold EVs for a man that has been declared ineligible.
Third, if we get through Jan. 3rd but find something out before Jan. 20th, I can't see how any sitting judge could act to administer the oath of office to Obama. That means we get President Biden (shudder).
Finally, I think there's a great case to be made that, regardless of when we get confirmation (even if it isn't until 2010), if it is ever proven that Obama is not a natural born citizen then he instantly forfeits the office. Certainly there has never been the need to "interpret" the qualification provisions of the Constitution, but I'm sure there would be a case to be made that failure of them, even after the oath is taken, would by law deprive someone of the office without further action. Certainly, such a late revelation would subject Obama to fraud charges in any jurisdiction (grounded in the fact that he intentionally deceived election officials into putting him on the ballot when he was not qualified for it), and it would be an impeachable offense (assuming the Constitution doesn't automatically deprive him of the office by operation).
The possibilities would be more interesting (from an academic standpoint) and horrifying (from a reality standpoint) than the quadrennial talk of an EC tie and an election thrown into the House.
Clinton history
JLenardDetroit October 24th, 2008 at 7:41 p.m. CDT (link)
great... Bill first impeached, Hilary first "put in office" by elector fiat. It's all about the power, they don't care how they get it or hold it.
RS:JLenardDetroit / Can we afford Obama SURRENDER doctrine? / Vote Psychology, Bandwagon effect, don't give up yet
+Obama Lies, and your Bank account will Die! (4/15 Truthers)
+Ignorance isn't Bliss, it is Expensive (costs us dearly every election)
+ NO to BI-partisanship, it is what keeps us "compromising" and giving in more and more to Socialistic tendencies
+ Yes to Presidential VETO, where has it been?
+ No to the "Obama Bin Biden" ticket
FAST TRACK OIL - NOW, NOW, NOW - Drill Here, Drill Now...
9/11 Day of Tragedy/Miracles / Web-Articles / Terror Strikes
I think the most
mdc October 22nd, 2008 at 11:29 a.m. CDT (link)
interesting part is that instead of just turning over the documents, he and the DNC file to dismiss.
Now it could be that they are trying to get Republicans involved and then produce the documents and make them look bad.
Or it could be there is something on the documents he would rather not have known.
Either way, I doubt we will ever know.
Is that Andy Martin the same one from Hannity's America?
rascalofearth October 22nd, 2008 at 5:47 p.m. CDT (link)
That says all the vile stuff?
Obama has like a gazillion dollars to blow on lawyers and IS Constitutional lawyer himself. While most lawyewrs srting things out to collect a larger paycheck I would think he will do the absolute minimal at every step and then only on the last possible day to just let the issue, real or not, run as long as possible. This way not only can he ignore the issue until it is settled, he can inflict financial pain on whomever is paying the othe side's legal bills.
btw, the miltary has no responsibility to decide anything. There is a President until there is a new President and as with Bush V Gore or Gore v Bush the Supremes would rule on any murky issues.
But can someone, preferably a lawyer, answer the question on what happens if a President elect dies before inauguration day?
Why are you asking this particular question?
janis October 22nd, 2008 at 6:38 p.m. CDT (link)
Casual interest or some other reason?
I'm a lawyer
bluechiplaw October 23rd, 2008 at 10:57 a.m. CDT (link)
And I can tell you that nobody took that class in law school.
Another lawyer here...
acasilaco October 23rd, 2008 at 2:30 p.m. CDT (link)
...but I'll just pass on this link, which answers the question pretty well:
http://presidentelect.org/art_deathpresidentelect.html
Another thought: I think there's a very good (probably correct) argument that it doesn't matter where he was born because his mom was a US citizen. His citizenship was therefore established from birth, and he's eligible. IMHO.
I don't think so
Suzz October 23rd, 2008 at 5:42 p.m. CDT (link)
I think it all depends on the laws of the country you are born in. In some instances I heard that you have a certain amount of days to appeal your citizenship in the USA. So that would mean his mom and dad would have had to come back here and file for citizenship for Barack.
If that were true?
Jaimo October 24th, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. CDT (link)
If that were true, how come John McCain's citizenship was questioned because he was born in Panama or Guam, and his father was in the military. Wasn't O's mother born in Hawaii before it was a state and she would have had to be a citizen of that state for 10 years after the age of 16 before giving birth to him for him to be considered a citizen?
GC HIGHLY RECOS - great HinzSight reporting in foresight - more
Mike gamecock DeVine October 22nd, 2008 at 11:32 a.m. CDT (link)
later
Mike DeVine’s Charlotte Observer columns The Minority Report and The HinzSight Report "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race." - The Chief Justice Race 4 2008 "One man with courage makes a majority." - Andrew Jackson
Interesting development
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 22nd, 2008 at 11:34 a.m. CDT (link)
Another thing to consider is, in the unlikely event BHO is found to be ineligible, what to do with the votes that have already been cast during the early voting process? What a mess.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
If all this is true and HE is elected,
larueladue October 22nd, 2008 at 11:37 a.m. CDT (link)
wouldn't that just make the second-place finisher the winner? Any arguments that the election would have been "unfair" would be moot, as Democrats could/should have vetted this long before selecting HIM as their candidate.
Furious activity is no substitute for understanding. -- H. H. Williams
Say Hello To President Hillary Clinton!
Strelnikov October 22nd, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. CDT (link)
No, the Electoral College ultimately is not bound to vote for any of the candidates: in this strange case, if Obama's true situation is that he is ineligible, the majority of Democrat electors will simply choose Hillary Clinton.
Or they could give the election to McCain, but that would be unlikely.
If Big Brobama is elected, the Code Words will be: "Klaatu - Borada - Nikto!"
I seriously doubt it
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 12:03 p.m. CDT (link)
this MIGHT be the fondest dream of Hillary supporters, but IF it occurred, I have to believe that an awful lot of the Electors would BLAME Hillary, and would vote for McCain in retaliation.
Not gonna happen, but an interesting scenario.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
If this comes up before the EC votes
civil_truth October 22nd, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. CDT (link)
It'd be messy, but I think Biden has the best chance at President, since at least he received votes in an election. It would be really tough to put in someone who didn't get votes. The VP would be unelected, but that's happened before. No chance for McCain to get 270 votes that I see.
Of course, if the electors don't agree and no one gets 270 votes, then it goes to Congress.
Also, if this came down after the EC vote, again it'd go to Congress (as no one eligible would have received 270 votes).
The pressure would then be for Congress people to make a public decision in advance of their convening in January.
Of course, after Jan 20th, then Biden would be prescribed successor.
I suspect that the fix is in and this will never get exposed to the light of day, or else the court will decide that the vote trumps the Constitution.
That of course assumes that there is substance here, which is not yet established.
And Rightly So!
When the House votes for Prez...
Crowe October 22nd, 2008 at 8:01 p.m. CDT (link)
In the cases where the House of Representatives is forced to choose the President because no candidate got a majority of the EC votes, it's not a simple majority of Congresscritters, they vote by state. So there are 50 votes cast, one each by the entire Congressional delegation of a state. So Alaska's and South Dakota's delegations have as much say as do California's and New York's.
"Do not fear, only believe." (Mark 5:36)
I was looking into this yesterday
Rich Chatfield October 22nd, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. CDT (link)
but got lost in all the legal mumble jumbo. Thanks for spelling it out clearly.
The country's economy goes into the toliet and Obama says, "I'll call ya". But then he suspends his campaign to go to Hawaii? It sounded fishy when I first heard it.
If Obama's grandmother is truly sick or hurt, I do hope she gets well soon.
~A vote for America, is a vote for McCain~
O.o Benjamin Franklin - "Well done is better than well said."
Rich, I am sure that Obama's Grandmother is sick....
Aaron Gardner October 22nd, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. CDT (link)
Sick of being called a typical white person....sick of being thrown under the bus by her own Grandson....sick of being used as a political scapegoat for her un-thankful Grandson's presidential campaign.
I would be sick too!!
"Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper" Peter Griffin...Family Guy
conform and celebrate diversity....or else!!!
Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger
"I'll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust" Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah...yes I love it that much.
Maybe her hip broke when the bus hit her!
Crowe October 22nd, 2008 at 8:02 p.m. CDT (link)
.
"Do not fear, only believe." (Mark 5:36)
An explanation of the Berg suit can be found here
Raven October 22nd, 2008 at 6:06 p.m. CDT (link)
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/raven/2008/aug/25/interesting-bombshell/
I found it interesting months ago. The fact that it is Still not resolved when the resolution is as simple as turning over documents that Presidential candidates usually turn over during the Primaries is just fascinating.
"It is getting harder and harder to find suicide bombers. And all the really good ones are gone."
Why has no one filed a freedom of information
c17wife October 22nd, 2008 at 11:49 a.m. CDT (link)
suit against Barack demanding that we see his birth certificate, medical records, college transcripts, etc..... Dear Lord, if we had to learn about Jack Ryan's sex life, surely we deserve to know if Barack is a natural born citizen, not a recovering druggy, and at the least, somewhat intellegent. No?
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
He's not subject to FOIA on that sort of
Achance October 22nd, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. CDT (link)
stuff as they are private, not federal public records, and many of them are statutorily confidential, e.g., transcripts.
I haven't looked at the Hawaii stututes, but they're a lot like ours and I'm sure there is a pretty robust Public Records Act. A request for his birth certificate under Hawaii's PRA might be what is causing all the upset.
In Vino Veritas
Recommend!
Jaded October 22nd, 2008 at 11:50 a.m. CDT (link)
nt
Whoever has his enemy at his mercy & does not destroy him is his own enemy
Beware of Wolves!!!!
jbaker October 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 a.m. CDT (link)
This is very important, please take the time to read it. This election has me very worried. So many things to consider. About a year ago I would have voted for Obama. I have changed my mind three times since than. I watch all the news channels, jumping from one to another. I must say this drives my husband crazy. But, I feel if you view MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News, you might get some middle ground to work with. About six months ago, I started thinking 'where did the money come from for Obama'. I have four daughters who went to College, and we were middle class, and money was tight. We (including my girls) worked hard and there were lots of student loans. I started looking into Obama's life. Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan. During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they where in college. When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York. It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap! to say the least. Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000. a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York. By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria, and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student loans? After Law school, he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar' which Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago. In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race. In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwoood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko. Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy? On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley advisor to Obama was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is elected, and he will 'Take care of things'. Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that where born in Pakistan? They are in charge of all those 'small' Internet campaign contribution for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East? And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he made a mistake'. Some mistake! All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama; Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008; The Times May 10, 2008. Now the BIG question - If I was able to find out all this information on my own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been reporting this? A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!
Moby <nt>
PaRep October 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 a.m. CDT (link)
.
I think JBaker made some good points
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 p.m. CDT (link)
I know this argument has been made already, but geez it is a scary argument.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
about half is credible
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. CDT (link)
and like I said, when this spam email goes around and around it loses its credibility when half of it is probably wrong.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
that is word for word an email that I have received at least five times
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 12:11 p.m. CDT (link)
please don't pollute this -- or any other site with spam talkingpoints
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
MOE -- would you be kind enough to delete this guy's comment
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 p.m. CDT (link)
and if you are really feeling kind -- his account!
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
Moby or not
Stephen Halsey October 22nd, 2008 at 12:35 p.m. CDT (link)
It's hard to deny what's in jbaker's post.
Just look at who Obama has chosen to associate himself with over the years. I know this is a very proper and very issues oriented site. But the reality is you can't always win on traditional substantive issues such as taxes, national defense, health care, education, etc.. This is one of those years, for a variety of reasons, the issues don't seem to be siding with us. And if we had a traditional Democrat opponent, then issues would be the primary focus of the campaign.
But this year we're facing a complete unknown, and what we do know is frankly frightening. Obama has never once associated himself with anyone other than a radical, America-hating person. Just look at the list:
Frank Marshall Davis Saul Alinsky ACORN Ayers Dorhn Farrakhan Wright Rezco Khalidi
Now I know we here at Redstate like to keep the discussion above board and that's a good thing in the blogosphere. But these associations are not mere coincidences. Perhaps other than Davis, Obama has CHOSEN to associate himself with the rest which shows horrendous judgement and that, when running for President, is fair game. And if it means devoting campaign time and resources in explaining this to the American people, then it needs to be done.
Now I don't know if there's anything to this birth certificate thing but I agree with the above, that even a blind squirrel finds a nut on occasion. To me, Obama's sudden trip to Hawaii does not pass the smell test.
And don't forget this, one of the main reasons Bush was relected was the Swift Boat campaign. Again not a campaign on traditional substantive issues. No...that campaign questioned Kerry's judgement and integrity regarding his military service and record. So I think it has been and still is fair game to question any and all of Obama's associations and previous work history.
The future of our country is at stake and we should use every weapon in our arsenal to make sure this country does not elect a Marxist.
Hit hard. Hit fast. Hit often.
let me address this with you Stephen
David Hinz October 22nd, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. CDT (link)
I agree with most all of what you have said. I have written at least a dozen different articles detailing the very associations you list above.
As to the post. If he/she/it had posted it as: "I received this in my email" I would say -- "Go for it, most of what is in there is arguably in play."
He/she/it posted it as "I" did this; "I" did the research, when in fact it is nothing but a cut and paste from an email. I find that distasteful -- sorry but I do.
That is taking credit for something that jbaker has NO IDEA at all if it is true. THAT is SPAM.
If jbaker wants to do the real work that he/she/it claims to have done...fine, I will read it and evaluate it.
I have links to news articles from months or even years ago from all over the world that substantiate most of the claims -- or at least cast doubt on Sen Obama's claims.
I don't like SPAM! I am offended by intellectual laziness.
but that's just me
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
David, I understand where you're coming from now.
Stephen Halsey October 22nd, 2008 at 12:55 p.m. CDT (link)
n/t
Hit hard. Hit fast. Hit often.
friends
Michael DeWeese October 24th, 2008 at 8:50 p.m. CDT (link)
http://www.redstate.com/diaries/michaelbdr/2008/oct/18/with-friends-like-this/
Brain Dead Republican
I think he answered the "somewhat intelligent" question.
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 22nd, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. CDT (link)
He has answered that one for me anyway (57 states). You are right about Ryan. Sad truth about Ryan was that he was beating "The One" in the polls before his downfall. What the heck happened to the repub party in Illinois? I never thought seriously about moving but I might have to re-consider it. Most of the politicians here are unbelievably corrupt. And the the ones that aren't corrupt are spectacularly inept. That explains why Illinois has the highest sales tax in the nation. Terrible public schools in Chicago. High crime rate. We are near the bottom in job creation in the U.S. And, on top of all that, it gets awfully cold here in the winter.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Illinois_Conserv,
wt259 October 22nd, 2008 at 1:01 p.m. CDT (link)
must be something in the Lake Michigan water, our states have much in common, except the unemployment rate. Corrupt, or inept democrats running things. You've got the highest sales tax, Michigan's got one of the higher gas tax rates, ditto to what you said on crime rate, education, and cold in the winter.
I think the Chicago machine dimsntled them
hunter October 23rd, 2008 at 7:53 a.m. CDT (link)
California, Illinois, and where else? Interesting how strong Republican or two party states suddenly go out like a light.
I have long felt ...
John Steele October 22nd, 2008 at 12:14 p.m. CDT (link)
... that the question of Obama's citizenship was all just so much nonsense. But the longer it goes on, and the more Obama stonewalls, the more I think there may be something to it.
Obama could resolve this in seconds with one document but he does everything possible to avoid answering the question. Simply provide the document to the judge in Philadelphia, the judge dismisses the suit, and the guys in the white coats come and take Berg off to someplace where he can't harm himself; end of discussion. Does he actually believe he is so special that he need not clarify the matter, that The One™ can ignore the courts? Does he hold the people of the nation he would govern in such contempt that their rights do not matter as much as his victory?
Does he actually believe that if elected and it turns out that he is not a citizen by birth that he will be actually be allowed to take office anyway? Or is he counting on the threats of civil unrest from his supporters that the government will acquiesce to his election? There must be enough Democrats and Republicans in Congress that respect the Constitution that they would nullify his election; if there are not then this entire question is moot, the nation is simply finished.
Does he actually believe that the definition of citizen by birth is so nebulous that the Supreme Court could not make a decision?
One document, that's all, one document.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Yes, you're right,
Tanggor October 22nd, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. CDT (link)
one document would answer it all. So why not produce it?
Simple:
He wants us to swing at the dirt. The more we swing at it, the more wacky it makes us look.
Sure, he could put it to rest, but why should he? It serves him better to see us chase our tails.
If it turns out he can't put it to rest, well, we'll find that out eventually anyway.
Best to be careful what we make a fuss over. Besides, there's so much else that's real and solid to hit him on.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
Hmmm
Tanggor October 22nd, 2008 at 12:43 p.m. CDT (link)
posted my above comment before reading the diary (always unwise).
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this really does have legs.
Hmmmm again.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
Not necessarily wrong.
Steph C October 22nd, 2008 at 2:06 p.m. CDT (link)
He could be dragging this out so we'll swing at dirt. The problem is he thinks we're too dumb to chew gum and walk at the same time... you know that thing called multitasking? There's nothing to say we can't keep an eye on this as well as attend to other critical issues in this election at the same time.
I'm not exactly skeptical. It may indeed have legs. However, if it does, it would mean the implosion of the Democratic Party. In addition, I don't believe Biden would automatically step into the position Obama would vacate as he might be considered complicit in the deception. Howard Dean would certainly be implicated as well as many superdelegates to the primaries.
October is almost over so a big October surprise is looking dim. Perhaps we're looking at a post election surprise?
Also blogging at http://hillbillypolitics.com and http://hangrightpolitics.com
But it's Democrats going after him
Crowe October 22nd, 2008 at 8:10 p.m. CDT (link)
It's not Republicans swinging at the dirt, it's fellow Dems... crazy ones, sure, but Dems nonetheless.
"Do not fear, only believe." (Mark 5:36)
There are a number of Democrats
Steph C October 23rd, 2008 at 8:45 a.m. CDT (link)
who want their party back from the socialists who have taken it over, i.e. the conservative Democrats we here so much about but never see in action.
Also blogging at http://hillbillypolitics.com and http://hangrightpolitics.com
Does Anyone Doubt Hawaii Democrats Would Fix Everything?
Strelnikov October 22nd, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. CDT (link)
No problem!
So don't get too excited about this going anywhere, assuming there is anything to go anywhere.
And where is Big Brobama right now as we write? Still in Hawaii?
If Big Brobama is elected, the Code Words will be: "Klaatu - Borada - Nikto!"
Worst case it could be time for ...
bk October 22nd, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. CDT (link)
a fire of mysterious origin to destroy the doc. It would take a long time (at least until late January) to try to recover any backup that might exist.
I don't believe he has left yet, has he?
Steph C October 22nd, 2008 at 12:56 p.m. CDT (link)
nt
Also blogging at http://hillbillypolitics.com and http://hangrightpolitics.com
Why not just respond to the lawsuit? Strange...
securitymom October 22nd, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. CDT (link)
nt
"Security Mom"
MOBY?
GuyInSD October 22nd, 2008 at 12:30 p.m. CDT (link)
Pardon my ignorance, but what does this mean?
Thanks.
A Moby is a sneaky, sneaky troll.
29Victor October 23rd, 2008 at 1:38 a.m. CDT (link)
Here's a better definition.
I Am Joe.
To be PC
IndependentfrMI October 23rd, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. CDT (link)
That was a polite way to put it.
I wouldn't say a sneaky, sneaky troll, rather I would say
The_Gadfly October 25th, 2008 at 7:38 a.m. CDT (link)
a troll who THINKS he is sneaky, sneaky. I think to most experienced blog watchers they stand our rather like a rhinoceros hiding behind a three year old oak sapling.
We can expect consistency from the MSM
bk October 22nd, 2008 at 12:47 p.m. CDT (link)
Bush NG docs: "Fake but accurate"
Obama's BC: "Fake but accurate"
Running out the clock?
woodsman October 22nd, 2008 at 1:26 p.m. CDT (link)
If he had responded to the filing he would have been put in the position of answering questions in the public domain (possibly) and that is something I feel he would avoid at all costs.
So, another way to scoot through this is to run out the clock in the hope that no one notices. Now, if another party starts to put this under a microscope it may be reaching a critical mass where it cannot be swept under the rug.
Ergo, the reason to visit the sick Grandmother. It has all the makings of being subterfuge.
From a common sense approach, if there is no pony in the pile of manure, why take the chance to stir it up? Otherwise, perhaps the pony is there waiting to be found.
I love RS
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 22nd, 2008 at 2:40 p.m. CDT (link)
There are so many good talking points being made on here. Hinz- Only been here a relatively short amount of time so if I see good points being made and later find out they are Bidenized (Plagarized) then I certainly understand your point of view. I would be upset if someone took what I wrote as their own creation too. Especially if it is the result of time-consuming investigation. I do love this site because I learn something new every day.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
This is a truly Bizarre Item
BurkeanBadger October 22nd, 2008 at 4 p.m. CDT (link)
I have to say that, like many other people who have posted, I have given the allegations that Obama was born abroad little credence until this week. Philip Berg is clearly a crackpot; I had not heard of this Andy Martin before today but it appears that he's an even bigger crank. So, a couple of headcases are challenging Obama's birthplace stringing together some mildly suspicious information. Big deal. Cranks and conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen.
Granted, I've never understood why Obama would not just release a paper copy of his birth certificate and put the matter to rest. But, there are many other possible reasons for this. Still, nothing much to get excited about.
But then suddenly he announces this impromptu, inexplicable trip to Hawaii in the middle of the campaign and just as polls appear to be tightening; just as "Joe the Plumber", Palin's attacks and Biden's gaffes all seem to be having an impact. This certainly seems to not be the best time to stop campaigning for a day or two.
His grandmother is sick? Okay, possibly. But is she at death's door? Is she so ill that she will not likely survive for two weeks, when he'll have more time? (Even if elected, he can certainly justify taking a couple days then more than now). It doesn't sound like it.
Could there actually be something to the Martin/Berg accusations? As Hinz has said even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then.
An alternative (and very plausible) explanation: there is truly nothing to the accusations, Obama was born in Hawaii and can prove it easily. But, he's attempting to use this story as bait; woo mainstream conservatives and Republicans into running with it (maybe even woo Palin into mentioning it) then dramatically produce the birth certificate and give a heart-felt speech on how scurrilous, insane and baseless the charges were and how ALL Republicans are out to destroy him; how he's an innocent victim because he had a foreign father, yada, yada, yada. The MSM will go crazy and THAT will be his October Surprise. McCain would be finished.
Given this, it is extremely important that all conservative journalists, all Republican politicians and especially McCain and Palin AND everyone associated with them avoid this story like the plague. Let the two Hillaryite nutcases do the fighting. If there is something to their accusations, McCain will benefit by default. But, please, for the love of God, the GOP MUST NOT get in the middle of it.
Addendum: This Matters ONLY if something surfaces before the election
BurkeanBadger October 22nd, 2008 at 4:50 p.m. CDT (link)
Just wanted to add that even if Berg/Martin allegations are true, it will be of practical significance ONLY if Obama's foreign birth is established BEFORE the election (or at least before the Electoral College votes).
Obviously, if the allegations turned out to be true, it would not only technically disqualify Obama, but would establish him as an incorrigible liar, a shameless manipulator and an individual thoroughly unworthy of holding any office of public trust. Of course the Obamaphiles and many in the media would manage to spin out some rhetorical kabuki to defend him, but many, many others would abandon him immediately. Thus, even if the DNC refused to remove him from the ballot (or even if it is too late to do so), he would lose in a landslide. Whether or not he is legally qualified to serve would be a moot point.
But what if his foreign birth is established after the election? To make matters simpler, let's say it's established conclusively; let's say Obama himself admits it (with a heavy dose of rationalizations to explain away his lie), but all this happens only after the E/C votes. What then? Obama will still be sworn in as President (mark my words). There is enough wiggle room to still make him qualified.
Even if he is foreign born, he was born to an American mother. Does this qualify him under the Constitution? It's a grey area, and that's all any Court needs. It's not a bright line disqualification, such as if it were discovered that he was really only 34. Even the most conservative, strict constructionist judge would be loath to nullify a democratic Presidential Election. At bottom, most judges are pragmatists. The unrest that a ruling nullifying his election would cause would greatly outweigh the damage to our Constitution and the people's faith on our national institutions that a bizarrely construed opinion declaring him qualified will surely create.
My guess is that SCOTUS would refuse to get involved at all (especially after the firestorm they created in 2000). But if they did, mark my words, even they would uphold his qualification. Scalia would write a passionate dissent, condemning his bretheran for raping the Constitution (and he'd be right); and he would be joined by Thomas, Alito and Roberts. But this would only happen after it is assured that Kennedy would vote with the four liberals, thus allowing the four conservatives to save face.
Depressing? Yes. An assault on the Constitution and the rule of law? Yes. A mockery of simple fairness and honesty? Yes. But that's reality, folks.
So, if there's truth to the allegations, it better come out before November 4th. A more interesting puzzle is what if the truth came out between November 4th (assuming Obama wins) and the E/C vote? But I won't speculate on that.
Yes but ...
John Steele October 22nd, 2008 at 5:51 p.m. CDT (link)
... as I said upthread, I like to think that there are sufficient Democrats and Republicans in the Congress that love the Constitution that they would nullify his election.
The court would have to rule relative to the citizenship/immigration law in effect as of the date of his birth. I haven't researched it so I'm not sure what the law was at the time but US law has changed a number of times over the years. Just because his mother was a US citizen might not automatically make him a US citizen. On the other hand it may be a moot point.
All of which raises the alarm bells even higher over his refusal to produce a proper document. I'm sure he has had legal advice on his status which makes me think he needs to conceal it at all cost.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
I'd like to think so too, John
BurkeanBadger October 22nd, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. CDT (link)
Actually, I'd like to believe that Barack Obama has enough honor and integrity that, if caught in such a shocking and catastrophic lie, he would voluntarily resign and let Joe Biden assume the Presidency. But, if the allegations are true (and let me repeat, at this point, I personally am VERY skeptical that they are), Obama is clearly a power obsessed, Machiavellian fraud who is devoid of any integrity. Thus, there is little chance that he would go quietly or voluntarily.
Given that, I'd like to believe that, as you said, enough Congressmen of both parties would refuse to certify his electoral votes. But, I have my doubts. Perhaps if the GOP controlled the House. But I think that too many Democrats are far too attached (irrationally so in many cases) to Obama for the Democratic House to do the honorable (and Constitutional) thing.
But, perhaps I'm too cynical. I just hope, for the sake of our country, that it never comes to this.
Well said BB
Thomas (Tom) Ferrero October 23rd, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. CDT (link)
Let the Hillary-ites touch the third rail.
Live free........or don't. It's your choice. Resist the bureaucracy.
We'll probably never know
redneck_hippie October 22nd, 2008 at 4:01 p.m. CDT (link)
the truth. But someday, a freezer in Hawiaii will be found with a mysterious stash of cash in it.
The free exchange of ideas inevitably yields both heat and light.
I'm not getting my hopes up
Andy Smith October 22nd, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. CDT (link)
for anything else on this matter. If Berg's allegations are true and Obama wins the election, he would have the power to make any changes to make himself legitimate. Like so many others, I have to wonder why Obama never responded to the lawsuit. Why is it that the one who preaches us about the politics of change has so many shad associations and a shadowy past we can't really uncover. I also find it odd that Obama was willing to drop everything and see grandma back in Hawaii, after pretty much calling her a racist and throwin her under the bus. McCain postponed his campaign (and not ridiculed for it, but notice how Obama hasn't gotten any scrutiny for going to Hawaii) for an economic crisis, and Obama goes to see his racist grandmother? As someone else stated, if she truly is sick, I hope she gets better soon. But now that the timing of the lawsuit to respond has expired, I do find this a little fishy indeed.
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
How so ...
John Steele October 22nd, 2008 at 6 p.m. CDT (link)
This is the president we're talking about, not an absolute dictator --- at least not yet. He can't just make himself legitimate.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
How so ...
John Steele October 22nd, 2008 at 6:03 p.m. CDT (link)
This is the president we're talking about, not an absolute dictator --- at least not yet. He can't just make himself legitimate.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
What's he trying to prove?
Republicanuck October 22nd, 2008 at 5:34 p.m. CDT (link)
That unlike a famous Illinois Statesman of yore, you can fool all of the people all of the time? or more to the point in this case, hoodwink them?
There are sure a lot of stupid posts upthread.
Tbone October 22nd, 2008 at 8:56 p.m. CDT (link)
Dear really stupid people who posted a lot of nonsense upthread about this matter. If he had a legit birth certificate, he would not have posted an obvious forgery online and he would have supplied it to the court a long time ago.
He does not have one, he was born in Kenya. How many white women did his family members in Kenya watch give birth to a black baby? Ya think they might have remembered it?
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
I've wondered
Whitehorse October 22nd, 2008 at 9:09 p.m. CDT (link)
Why Obama has just not produced the BC & put this to rest?
Is this a distraction from other issues? As someone else eloquently pointed out, are they setting some kind of trap for a Republican? Or are they just not very organized?
It does open Obama up to a Nov. 1 surprise from an enterprising 527 organization.
Arrogance <nt>
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 4:10 p.m. CDT (link)
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
It would seem
koertli October 22nd, 2008 at 9:36 p.m. CDT (link)
Obama would take this opportunity, seeing his Ailing Grandmother ( God Bless Her), as a Media PR event.
I have not heard anything. Anyone?
Obama Sticking with Grandma Story Only
Patricia_C October 23rd, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. CDT (link)
Clearly, Barack is either unfamiliar with the latest allegation (that he is the illegitimate son of Frank Davis), or he is and is now attempting to head the truth off at the pass by tossing out a sympathy distraction by using his regret over not rushing to his mother's side when she was dying to explain why he has dropped everything to be with his grandmother.
In an "exclusive interview" with CBS EARLY SHOW co-anchor Harry Smith, Barack explained why it was so important for him to suspend his campaign to see his grandmother. But strangely, Barack does not discuss or disclose or even hints at the nature of his grandmother's condition or mention any specific illness. Barack simply moves backward and references his regret for not having made the effort to go see his mother when she was dying of cancer.
Why isn't the media pushing the "erratic" meme on this? Why doesn't HE have to multi-task? Why won't he tell us why it is so important to drop everything and rush off to be with his grandmother? Why won't he tell us what her condition is or what illness she has?
At least John McCain gave the specifics on why the "economic crisis" was an urgent enough reason to suspend his campaign.
Obama isn't giving any details about his grandmother... none... nothing. He only discloses details when discussing the pain he carries for not being with his mother when she was dying of cancer. He gives no clarity on why it is so important to rush to the side of his grandmother... right now.
According to reports, his grandmother, Madelyn Payne Dunham (AKA: "Typical white person")was released from the hospital late last week. But Barack says her health has "deteriorated" to the point where her situation is "very serious". So... why isn't she back in the hospital... and what is the nature of her illness?
One would think that, under these circumstances, Barack would give us SOME specifics regarding her condition... I mean, I find it rather strange that Barack didn't think it important enough to stop writing his book (about the man who we now discover he might very well have known was not even his father) to be with his mother as she lay dying of cancer... yet it IS important enough to stop his presidential campaign, just two weeks before election day, with his poll numbers slipping and while losing his advantage in battleground states... to rush to his grandmother's side for some illness or condition he refuses to disclose...
"Even when you fall on your face, you're still moving forward."
And this still does not answer...
Shawn Gillogly October 23rd, 2008 at 2:16 a.m. CDT (link)
the Indonensia question. Because he still went to school there. And they still denied dual-citizenship. So when did his citizenship get revoked, or what dispensation was granted? And where is the evidence for it?
No, if this was a simple answer, it would've been given and not wrapped in motions.
"Liberals are always talking about pluralism, but that is not what they mean. In public school, Jews don't meet Christians. Christians don't meet Hindus. Everybody meets nothing."- Dennis Prager
The fact ...
John Steele October 23rd, 2008 at 7:01 a.m. CDT (link)
... that Indonesian law does not recognize dual citizenship has no effect on whether he is or is not a US citizen by birth under US law. Adoption by a foreigner does not change whether one is eligible for US citizenship under US law and as a minor he could not renounce any US citizenship to which he might be entitled in any event.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
No, he couldn't...
Shawn Gillogly October 24th, 2008 at 1:11 a.m. CDT (link)
but his father could have. And since Indonesia doesn't recognize dual-citizenship, for him to be admitted into an Indonesian school, his father must have arranged citizenship for him. How was this done? That has never been answered. If there was a revocation by his father of Obama's citizenship, he is no longer a natural born citizen regardless of his place of birth.
"Liberals are always talking about pluralism, but that is not what they mean. In public school, Jews don't meet Christians. Christians don't meet Hindus. Everybody meets nothing."- Dennis Prager
I beleive that ...
John Steele October 24th, 2008 at 11:11 a.m. CDT (link)
... you are incorrect. You parents, birth or adoptive, cannot relinquish your citizenship for you even if you are a dependent minor. You and you alone make that decision at the time you reach your majority.
Obama may or may not be a citizen by birth due to several situations. If he was born in Hawaii then clearly he is. If he was born in Kenya as Berg claims then his claim to citizenship is dependent on the US citizenship and immigration law that was in effect at the time of his birth. Citizenship by birth has not always automatically passed to the child simply because of the US citizenship of one or other parent. The law has been changed a number of times in the past 100 years and the conditions have changed each time.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
This has been debunked months ago
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 4:21 a.m. CDT (link)
FactCheck.org debunked this with a thorough vetting. Please put your tin foil hats back in the closet and start campaigning for your candidate else you will have no one to blame but yourselves.
Prince Albert's in the Can.
29Victor October 23rd, 2008 at 4:33 a.m. CDT (link)
Somebody had to say it.
And if you don't get it then get off my lawn, you young punks!
I Am Joe.
Actually...
Shawn Gillogly October 23rd, 2008 at 4:55 a.m. CDT (link)
The "fact check" was fact checked and found wanting, if you had actually bothered to read the data on it. Nevermind that "FactCheck.org" is run by...drum roll The Annenburg Foundation...oh yes...a group Obama used to be on the board for.
So much for unbiased and objective, no? Another under-reported conflict of interest in this election. Admittedly, a minor one, compared to so many others.
"Liberals are always talking about pluralism, but that is not what they mean. In public school, Jews don't meet Christians. Christians don't meet Hindus. Everybody meets nothing."- Dennis Prager
Obama did not work for the Annenberg Foundation, per se
Laura October 24th, 2008 at 8:36 p.m. CDT (link)
The (huge and philanthropic) Annenberg Foundation has sponsored hundreds of initiatives in the years since it was created by Walter H. Annenberg.
One such initiative was the "Chicago Annenberg Challenge," where the Foundation made a grant that was to be matched through fundraising by Obama.
Obama was beholden to the Foundation, not the other way around.
A greater source for looking at the bias of the Annenberg Public Policy Center (of the University of Pennsylvania) could be its director: Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a consistent critic of McCain and, I would assume, another Obama supporter out there who should be leading unbiased investigation.
But, again, you cannot say that FactCheck.org, a work of one of the Annenberg Foundation's grantees, necessarily is beholden to Obama by connection through Annenberg. Just doesn't hold up to even mild scrutiny.
Is this how u want 2 spend the next...
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 6:30 a.m. CDT (link)
...two weeks? Chasing bogeymen? Sorry peeps, but I live in Napili, on Maui. I was in Honolulu a couple of months ago researching the archives of The Honolulu Advertiser for a piece I'm writing and decided to check the birth announcements (all back issues are on microfiche). Guess what? It's there! The actual birth announcement of BHO on 40 year old microfiche! That's why I allude to the tin foil hats. In the HOSPITAL WHEN YOU GIVE BIRTH you are asked if you want it published in the paper, free of charge and the only way to do this is by the HOSPITAL submitting the list of recent births to the newspaper after you give your permission. Get it? If I listen to you I would have to suspend my belief in what I saw with my own eyes. Look, I don't have a dog in this race. They are both slimebags, IMHO. Why do you people insist on wasting the remaining two weeks on something that will get you NOWHERE!?
If I were a Reporter in Hawaii,..
quill67 October 23rd, 2008 at 7:02 a.m. CDT (link)
I would go find the record of which you speak. A day of microfish scanning for a good story.
I'm not a reporter
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. CDT (link)
I'm a student working on my thesis. Look, the point I'm making is if you don't believe(or trust) the Obama camp to give you a factual BC, fine. I will say that the one provided looks identical to my children's BC's. The conspirators have only a photocopy posted on the internet on which to base their allegations, and they see all kinds of "discrepancies" that I, frankly, don't. Also, how is it that a 40 year old microfiche has the birth announcement if he wasn't born in Kapiolani Hospital? Like I've stated, the hospital is the one who provides the info to the paper. If he wasn't born in Hawaii then how do you explain that? Do you believe that someone had the prescience over forty years ago to forge a birth announcement? I'm sorry, but that is tin foil hat territory.
They already have ...
John Steele October 23rd, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. CDT (link)
... reporters found this item early on, PrinceAlbert's revelation is a non-event.
But newspaper announcement of birth prove nothing, they are not legal records.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Correct
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. CDT (link)
But the mere presence of the announcement on forty year old archived microfiche that has nothing to do with Obama's campaign and that I have seen with my own eyes pretty much debunks the idea that he wasn't born here, IMHO.
A birth announcement is not a legal document.
Tim_Schieferecke October 23rd, 2008 at 10:51 a.m. CDT (link)
I'm not saying I know one way or another what the merits of this whole story are, but a newspaper announcement is not absolutely reliable proof (legal proof) of his being born in Hawaii or Kenya for that matter. Anyone can place an announcement in a paper for whatever reason they see fit.
Tim Schieferecke
Not really
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 11:47 a.m. CDT (link)
If you pay to have a birth announced it gets it's own little space in the paper. If you choose to have it listed by the hospital for free it gets lumped in with all the other area births, which is what I saw. Hence, no conspiracy. You are grasping at the proverbial straw. Again, it is the hospital reporting the birth not the parents or anyone else. Is this really the best you can do?
Why does it matter?
2006_personoftheyear October 23rd, 2008 at 2:59 p.m. CDT (link)
I ask, why does it matter if it is evidence of a legal nature or not? We are asking if he was born in Hawaii, and this is pretty strong evidence in favor (while it is true that someone could have put a fake birth announcement in a Hawaii paper on a day that just so happened to coincide with the birth of a dude in another country who just so happened to later run for the Presidency, but...really?)
There are two questions here. First is, was he born in HI? The newspaper thing (which I have heard before) convinces me the answer is "yes." The second is, does he have the legal documents to prove it? To which I say, the Constitution says one must have been born here, but not that one must furnish a birth certificate to prove it...after all, not everyone might have a birth certificate, especially considering that no such thing is mandated in the Constitution. If he can prove* he was born in the US, then it doesn't matter if that proof involves legal documents or not. The courts can mandate he demonstrate he was born here, but not that he specifically produce a birth certificate to demonstrate he was born here.
The difference between this and voting (where one can be required to show ID) is that states are allowed to put additional requirements on voting (such as not being a felon) whereas the Constitutional requirements on qualifications for the Presidency are absolute (Eugene Debs ran from prison for example).
Either way, the Fact Check people at the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania (WOOOO!) say the birth certificate is realm and I have no reason to doubt them.
*by prove I mean within reason, not like beyond any crazy conspiracy theory someone could come up with, like how Obama sent Arnold Schwarzenegger back in time to put in the Newspaper announcement in exchange for a cabinet position that he would use to demonstrate bipartisanship.Yeah and I got
IndependentfrMI October 23rd, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. CDT (link)
We all have seen the photos of the victim holding that days newpaper as proof too.
Trust but verify!
Heh. I didn't even bother to look, when I visited.
Moe Lane October 23rd, 2008 at 10:54 a.m. CDT (link)
To give you a time frame, we were in Waikiki during the week of the Palace takeover. Beautiful state. Cool lava. Ridiculously expensive.
That was a fun trip, up to the point where they lost my wife's luggage on the return.
I am Joe.
Congress Would Just Change the Law
quill67 October 23rd, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. CDT (link)
The law that specifies what constitutes a person as "natural born" retroactively and do you think the Supreme Court would overturn that law?
I doubt it. The Supreme Court gets its power from our consent. The constitution does NOT give the Supreme Court the right to declare laws unconstitutional. This is a power they took for themselves. The would not want to erode public support.
A very strange ...
John Steele October 23rd, 2008 at 10:46 a.m. CDT (link)
.. "understanding" of what the Congress can do.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Birth question becoming a novel!
securitymom October 23rd, 2008 at 7:37 a.m. CDT (link)
If (and that is a big if) certificate of birth lists no one as a father...than let's just pick someone who is an American citizen and has been a "friend" of the family.
Has this fictional book a title?
"Security Mom"
Poor Obama...
Patricia_C October 23rd, 2008 at 8:20 a.m. CDT (link)
How frustrating it must be to know that his father was not a Polygamist Muslim but (is) rather a Communist Pedophile...
And, I find it most ironic that, while Barack struggles hard to promote and secure abortion rights... were it not for the Pro-Life choice of his mother... he would never have been born.
Good thing she didn't see her pregnancy, the result of an affair, as being "punished with a baby" or Barack never would have been born in time to make sure his daughters can abort his grandchildren if they decide they don't want them.
"Even when you fall on your face, you're still moving forward."
No wonder he had an identity crisis in his college years.
QueenOfCups October 24th, 2008 at 8:02 p.m. CDT (link)
He's a far more troubled young man than we ever knew.
BEST Election Cycle EVAH!!! Every day a new twist!
Well that explains a lot
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 23rd, 2008 at 9:36 a.m. CDT (link)
If anyone wonders why BHO spent a majority of his formative years in a drug induced haze this would explain it. What a sad story. What a sad family. The next question would have to be did he ever get therapy to deal with this kind of life. If not, it's never too late.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
It explains so much IF -- and I do mean IF it is true
David Hinz October 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 a.m. CDT (link)
It explains the anger that has stayed with him into his adult life. It explains his 20 years in a hate-filled church. It explains his "typical white person" grandma comments.
Can you imagine the rage that would build up from having your entire life ripped away from you?
As I point out, I have no idea if Martin's investigation has dug up the truth, or if it is just a wild goose chase. The fact that it totally undermines Martin's OWN premise that Sen Obama was born in Kenya and not a natural born US citizen gives me pause to wonder.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
Drug induced haze?
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 a.m. CDT (link)
Do you mean like the one Dubya spent his first forty years in? I spent a little time dabbling in illegal substances in my youth and I can tell you this: Anyone who reaches the pinnacle of the Harvard Law Review did not spend his formative years in a drug induced haze. The man has admitted to his past. Dubya dodged the question of his exuberant cocaine use in his youth, even though it was never really a big secret in Midland/Odessa in the 70's. Who among us doesn't have a skeleton or two in our closet?
what you prove with comments like this
David Hinz October 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 a.m. CDT (link)
is that you are illiterate.
Have you bothered to read ANYTHING?
stupid is as stupid does
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
re skeletons
bk October 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. CDT (link)
Who among us doesn't have a skeleton or two in our closet?
Well apparently Obama doesn't from the way you're talking. Maybe we could just call the coronation in January the "Immaculate Inauguration".
Um... Your Highness....?
Patricia_C October 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. CDT (link)
1) One more time... George Bush is not running for president.
2) "The man" admitted he spent a great deal of time in a "drug enduced haze".
3) We all have "skeletons"... but not proverbial grave yards full of really really scary ones... and MOST importantly... "we" are not running for President of the United States.
I find it very strange that you take offense that George (in your opinion) "dodged the question of his exuberant cocaine use in his youth", yet you are not the least bit concerned that Barack Obama continues to be caught in a growing number of blatant LIES.
"Even when you fall on your face, you're still moving forward."
huh?
Tanggor October 23rd, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. CDT (link)
"Anyone who reaches the pinnacle of the Harvard Law Review did not spend his formative years in a drug induced haze."
Dude, he was an affirmative action selection. He did not reach any pinnacles based on his merits.
Now he wants to be the affirmative action POTUS.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
in fairness to Sen Obama
David Hinz October 23rd, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. CDT (link)
we don't KNOW that. we can surmise that, since there has been virtually NO RECORD of any of his accomplishments or writings up to and including his election as president of the HLR.
But we don't KNOW he was merely an affirmative action appointment.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
True,
Tanggor October 23rd, 2008 at 11:55 a.m. CDT (link)
in the strictest sense. I was not suggesting that his appointment was done within the actual legal or University process of AA.
But I was surmising it, absolutely, that it occurred for PC reasons, rather than academic ones. Given the sheer paucity of credentials presented to that point (at least in the public record) it's quite difficult to come to any other conclusion.
Point taken, however.
"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." - Benjamin Franklin
Is this how you want to spend the last days
IndependentfrMI October 23rd, 2008 at 1 p.m. CDT (link)
Is this how you want to spend the next 12 days? As you so rightly put it. Bush isn't on the ticket!
Obama the vicitm.......dems tried the race baiting that didn't work, connect McCain to Bush that isn't working either so.......Obama becomes the victim of his own party by his nondisclosure. WHAT IS HE AFRAID OF ONE MORE SKELETON?
Drug induced haze?
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 9:53 a.m. CDT (link)
Do you mean like the one Dubya spent his first forty years in? I spent a little time dabbling in illegal substances in my youth and I can tell you this: Anyone who reaches the pinnacle of the Harvard Law Review did not spend his formative years in a drug induced haze. The man has admitted to his past. Dubya dodged the question of his exuberant cocaine use in his youth, even though it was never really a big secret in Midland/Odessa in the 70's. Who among us doesn't have a skeleton or two in our closet?
Dude
leftylurker October 23rd, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. CDT (link)
It's not worth it. You aren't going to convince people with comments like that.
Cool off, lurk a bit, and come back once the cortisol has worn off.
You know, actually: that didn't bug me that much.
Moe Lane October 23rd, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. CDT (link)
Honestly, he's right: Bush's old substance abuse problem is hardly a secret these days, and while I think that you can actually get away with doing drugs and maintaining a successful life for a while, I expect that the only things that Obama's abusing these days are cigarettes and his followers' willingness to keep sending him money.
Hey, I moderate this site. I'm allowed to poke slight fun at the fact that he's still hitting people up for ten bucks. :)
I am Joe.
Obama still owes me my T shirt
leftylurker October 23rd, 2008 at 10:15 a.m. CDT (link)
I coughed up 30 bucks for it, so I could prove that I was on the right side of the line in case the men with the clipboards came to do a loyalty check.
No clipboards;
Achance October 23rd, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. CDT (link)
we'll just check your hands. If you have callouses, you go free, if your hands are soft and pink, it's off to the camps for you. Simple, effective, and completed on the spot.
In Vino Veritas
Hitting them up or shaking them down
IndependentfrMI October 23rd, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. CDT (link)
He's going to need it for his legal defense fund.
"I'm not going to ask advise from a Chicago politician".
Curious
leftylurker October 23rd, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. CDT (link)
How has the fact checked birth certificate I've seen been debunked?
My instinct is to agree that this is some tinfoil hat stuff, on par with "Bush ordered 9/11."
Obama's BC
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. CDT (link)
The BC issue is a non-issue. What alot of people, left and right, don't understand is that is Hawaii, brah! Until very recently (the last ten years or so) there were all kinds of discrepancies in official documents. It just depended on who was working that day. When I first got a Hawaii DL they spelled my name wrong and it took me over a year to get it fixed. That's just how things work here and anyone that's lived here for any length of time can tell you that.
Search on youtube. It's a phony BC. nt
Tbone October 23rd, 2008 at 11:30 a.m. CDT (link)
NT
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Hey Prince-
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 23rd, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. CDT (link)
Like the next Prez of the US said in the last debate (and I will put it in CAPS for you and your ilk). BUSH IS NOT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008. And as for BHO's intellectual prowess, sorry I am not in awe. He lost me with his 57 states comment. Is that a lack of geographical or mathematical genius?
And btw, based on your response I question whether you just "dabbled" in illegal substances.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
And as I have stated...
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 10:37 a.m. CDT (link)
I don't have a dog in this race. I found this blog when I became aware that some loonies were questioning Obama's BC. I am simply trying to state that here in Hawaii, government documents vary in consistency from island to island and from day to day. This morning I pulled out my kids BC's and my marriage certificate. The font on my marriage cert. is different from the font on the BC's. I attribute this to the fact that I was married on Oahu but my kids were born on Maui. This just seemed to me to be a very odd research project conducted by an individual who has never lived in the islands and is simply chasing ghosts that do not exist. Believe me, I've read the so-called evidence and I have to say that those of us who live here and have to deal with this third world bureaucracy on a daily basis are laughing our asses off at this joke.
blah blah [sanitized]
mcfail October 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 a.m. CDT (link)
If it was any one except Andy Martin, it might hold water.
Get a real journalist that doesnt clog the legal system with cases that the judge and prosecution were jews with vendettas against him.
Thats some tinfoil hat [redacted].
The ironic bit is that I agree that this is a nothingburger.
Moe Lane October 23rd, 2008 at 10:23 a.m. CDT (link)
But we get enough drive-bys who can't be bothered to look up our rules on profanity that I need to keep this one around.
Blam.
I am Joe.
Moe you inspired me...
2006_personoftheyear October 23rd, 2008 at 3:18 p.m. CDT (link)
...for some reason to get a hamburger for dinner. And some beer in which to drown my sorrows after my stupid midterm, and then watch game 2. Even though I always try and get my friends to go get burgers and something always comes up...
Anyway, I don't get this all. We have the Newspaper clipping from the time. My thought process is that this pretty much proves he was born in HI. From there, my guess is the birth certificate is legitimate...why the hell would he be born in HI but make a fake birth certificate?
As for the newspaper, anyone could put an announcement in there. But Obama wasn't famous in 1961, he was a random infant...even assuming that the Obamas knew someone in HI willing to do their dirty work, who would go through the trouble of making a fake announcement for the birth of some baby in the Newspaper, just because you had a really good feeling that:
a) the kid would be President one day; b) that this dispute would happen; c) and that it would come down to whether there was a newspaper announcement? Plus the fact check people already say they inspected a copy of the birth certificate, and say it's real.I am regular reader
fladem October 24th, 2008 at 10:03 p.m. CDT (link)
here that posts rarely, for obvious reasons. In the main I have always been pretty impressed with the intelligence shown here, even if I don't agree with the opinions expressed. I hate trolls - which is why my posts in the last few years are mostly just to articulate praise to the guy who does the excellent, and sometimes very funny, summaries of the weekend talk shows.
I have to say this thread and issue is absurd. There is an announcement of Barack's birth in the newspaper at the time of his birth. He was clearly born at that hospital.
I have to say I am surprised that this appears here.
It isn't necessary ...
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 1:04 p.m. CDT (link)
... that the Obamas "knew" or "felt" any of those things. IF, and that's a big if, they falsified the report of birth it is simply that they wanted the child to have the advantage of being a US citizenship. Once upon a time, and still true to this day but probably not in an Obama-nation, US citizenship was catching the gold ring, winning the lottery.
Of course once that's in place life is what you make of it.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Jews with Vendettas? Trolls are thick today
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. CDT (link)
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
No doubt it is nothing
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 23rd, 2008 at 10:29 a.m. CDT (link)
I just get so tired of hearing Bush this and Bush that.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Stop with the Obama BC BS
jimmuy8 October 23rd, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. CDT (link)
Hot Air and Right Wing News have this: scan of the newspaper at the time of his birth. What does it say?
didn't bother to read it didya?
David Hinz October 23rd, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. CDT (link)
n/t
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
Look it up
PrinceAlbert October 23rd, 2008 at 3:21 p.m. CDT (link)
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
no year
Suzz October 23rd, 2008 at 5:51 p.m. CDT (link)
there is no year posted. When was his half brother born.....and where?
The link will take you
fladem October 24th, 2008 at 10:15 p.m. CDT (link)
to a conservative website. It states:
"Wouldn't it be nice if we had a contemporaneous corroboration of Obama's Hawaii birth? As it happens, we do -- provided by another PUMA who wanted to find ways to disqualify Obama. Lori Starfelt found this in the archives of the Honolulu Advertiser in a print copy from August 1961."
Yes, but they had 9 months to cover the truth.
izoneguy October 23rd, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. CDT (link)
Printing something in a newspaper does not make it gospel. Nor would a fake birth certificate. I don't think we will find the truth. The only truth I know is that Barack Obama the man running for president of YOUR United States is a pathlogical liar and nothing anyone says or does will derail his blind ambition. From his associations to his record, I find NOTHING redeeming about him as a politician or a man. If Barack is defeated then we must keep the pressure on him so that he cannot rise up again.
As Bill Ayers once wrote - "Memory is a motherf*cker"
AMEN!!
Terilyn Tatro October 23rd, 2008 at 11:26 p.m. CDT (link)
n/t
WE ARE JOE
It looks like
mdc October 23rd, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. CDT (link)
Barry is really sad about all this. I mean here he is on the Ellen Show ,heartbreaking I tell ya.
Obama isn't as smart as he would like us to think
IndependentfrMI October 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 p.m. CDT (link)
But don't you think if Obama were as smart as he pretends to be he would have taken extra care to cross the t's and dot the i's? At least bury them like a good Chicago politician. The Clinton's can keep records from going public for decades so what makes us think Obama can't do the same? At least try.
More than this
kweiss01 October 23rd, 2008 at 1:19 p.m. CDT (link)
I'd like more than Andy Martin's word that he's solved the mystery.
I'd like to see these birth records put before the public/press just as John McCain's were. If it turns out Obama's a citizen (regardless of parentage) then fine -- this issue is over.
Mr. Martin's dramatic announcement on the courthouse steps isn't proof of anything.
Thank you David
lucyinpa October 23rd, 2008 at 1:28 p.m. CDT (link)
I did not read your blog until I posted a question regarding this info on my site. I email yours to my congressman and Rush asking for more action and exposure. lucyinpa
Thank you David
lucyinpa October 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. CDT (link)
I did not read your blog until I posted a question regarding this info on my site. I email yours to my congressman and Rush asking for more action and exposure. lucyinpa
Thank you David
lucyinpa October 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. CDT (link)
I did not read your blog until I posted a question regarding this info on my site. I email yours to my congressman and Rush asking for more action and exposure. lucyinpa
Can anyone verify that Frank Marshall Davis
1SGinTN October 23rd, 2008 at 2:35 p.m. CDT (link)
and Ms Dunham were in the same grid square 9 months prior to Barry's birth?
Tu Ne Cede Malis -Virgil
I'm sure
MikeO October 23rd, 2008 at 2:48 p.m. CDT (link)
I'm sure that Andy Martin has a whole box of grid squares in his back pocket. It's clipped to the ring holding the keys to the training area.
Are you on my DA Form 6?
1SGinTN October 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 p.m. CDT (link)
;>)
Tu Ne Cede Malis -Virgil
of course if we approached it the way they do us
bk October 23rd, 2008 at 2:55 p.m. CDT (link)
We'd say that if they can't prove beyond all doubt that there were never in the same city at any time in a 2-3 window on each side of 9 mos before the birth, then it must be true.
I see Berg has filed for summary Judgment
Tbone October 23rd, 2008 at 3:13 p.m. CDT (link)
Somebody needs to get to the bottom of this.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Pardon my ignorance,
Andy Smith October 23rd, 2008 at 5 p.m. CDT (link)
but can you explain what a summary judgement is? Lawyerspeak is above my paygrade. =)
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
IANAL
itrytobenice October 23rd, 2008 at 9:27 p.m. CDT (link)
But I believe it means that since the party you are suing didn't respond, the judge automatically rules in your favor.
I can't think how it would work in a demand to produce a birth certificate. It works really well when we need a judgment against a debtor default.
I meant what I said and I said what I meant. An elephant's faithful 100 percent.
Pardon my ignorance,
Andy Smith October 23rd, 2008 at 5 p.m. CDT (link)
but can you explain what a summary judgement is? Lawyerspeak is above my paygrade. =)
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
Pardon my ignorance,
Andy Smith October 23rd, 2008 at 5 p.m. CDT (link)
but can you explain what a summary judgement is? Lawyerspeak is above my paygrade. =)
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
It means that even if the facts are as asserted
Achance October 24th, 2008 at 3:52 a.m. CDT (link)
by the complainant, no law has been violated. To get a summary judgement, you must tell the court that you do not contest any fact or circumstance the complainant has alleged but even so, the law does not provide for him a cause of action.
In Vino Veritas
Summary Judgment
JWhitacre October 24th, 2008 at 11:23 p.m. CDT (link)
Under both state and federal rule 56, summary judgment is awarded when the moving party establishes that no genuine issue of material fact exists to controvert the allegations in the complaint.
Often times, if a party fails to answer requests for admissions (most judges deem them admitted by operation of law after 30 days without response), the party who propounded the admissions will move for summary judgment. Admissions which have been deemed admitted constitute evidence under rule 56.
The court does, however, have the ability and responsibility to not award judgment to a plaintiff under the summary judgment rule if the deemed admissions contradict another part of the case record.
How it plays out
DaveOinSF October 23rd, 2008 at 3:33 p.m. CDT (link)
Say Obama is determined not to be a natural born citizen. Doesn't matter when it happens.
Say he wins the election in November. Then he wins when the EC votes in December. Come January, the EC votes are presented to the congress for confirmation. Republicans can challenge every state in which Obama wins electoral votes. Democrats, if they hold the majority in both houses, will then vote the challenges all down and vote to accept the results.
The 20th amendment says:
"if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified;"
The Dem controlled house and senate then pass a law saying that Barack Obama is a natural born citizen, or redefine natural born citizen retroactively so that it includes Barack Obama. They time the passage of this bill so that it doesn't get sent to the president until 12:01PM on Jan 20.
Acting-president Joe Biden signs the billl, and Barack Obama automatically becomes president.
Something else just doesn't add up.
Andy Smith October 23rd, 2008 at 5:10 p.m. CDT (link)
I remember a little more than 10 years ago, when my grandfather was dying, we were told the end was coming. My family made plans to go back to Virginia to see him when we received the news. Unfortunately, he didn't live much longer past the phone call we received. We were on a plane the very next morning to Virginia, and my brother did the same from Wisconsin.
In other words, we didn't announce to the world he was gravely ill, say we were going to rush to see hiim, then waited three, four, or five days to get there. That's just me, and I can only imagine that's what most other people would do. Look, if the poor woman is in poor health, I wish the best for her. I truly do. But looking at Obama's past and how shady it is, this isn't adding up. I won't claim to think he's a Muslim, or that he wasn't born in the United State, or even that he's an illegitimate child of someone else. But if you look at the facts here; his website just posted a pretty suspicious birth certificate, and the only medical record we have is a one page letter from his physician saying he's in good health, then what is he hiding? And why hasn't this hit the airwaves? Even if it does sound kooky, it should be out there. I mean CBS was knowingly putting fake documents out there to get Kerry elected, and we can't have one mention of this in the press?
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
I'm confused
MrsPankhurst October 23rd, 2008 at 8:58 p.m. CDT (link)
Are you saying the most famous man in the world, and his Secret Service detail, are going to go address a Hawaii court, in secret?
I'm Sure with being a Troll
PaRep October 23rd, 2008 at 9:08 p.m. CDT (link)
you would know the answer right
Seriously
MrsPankhurst October 23rd, 2008 at 9:19 p.m. CDT (link)
I don't understand what it is the diarist is saying he is going to do when he is in Hawaii. Please, can someone explain. If he goes anywhere other than his hotel and his gran's hospital, he'll be followed by press and, I assume, a GOP operative or two that have been sent for the express purpose of keeping tabs on him. So, what is it that he can accomplish by this trip?
False Hope
andy764383 October 23rd, 2008 at 9:09 p.m. CDT (link)
Berg is a Dem con job to give Conservatives false hope and distract them from looking into legitimate issues, like his school ties and records.
Martin just wants to sell books.
Same with Corsi.
Trust me. No one wants to see Obama derailed more than I do, but this is all nonsense.
Cynical Optimist
the last person to say "Trust me"
David Hinz October 23rd, 2008 at 9:20 p.m. CDT (link)
cost me an arm and a leg in divorce court.
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
Suit Yourself
andy764383 October 23rd, 2008 at 10:13 p.m. CDT (link)
I'm not sure what your point is but if you want to be distracted and conned by con men, feel free.
The birth certificate nonsense discredits all the legitimate issues, causing the average American to tune it out. Same with the middle name and muslim stupidity.
It's counterproductive.
Cynical Optimist
Followers of O
IndependentfrMI October 24th, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. CDT (link)
The followers of Obama tuned out months ago if not years.
You live in another world, called Obama's Utopia. As Hillary put it during the primaries; the sky will open up and the a light will shine down and everything will be right with the world.
Pay Attention
andy764383 October 25th, 2008 at 9:24 p.m. CDT (link)
Take one look at my blog and you will know I am not in the Obama band camp.
Cynical Optimist
Investigate before you sound off. You may not come across as so ignorant.
The Low Road
DonPMitchell October 24th, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. CDT (link)
Basically what I said. These stupid conspiracy theories make Republicans look bad. It is wrong, and it is a bad strategy, because it impacts both candidates negatively. McCain himself has denounced these kinds of tactics.
Goldwater: In your heart, you know he's right
An Embarassment
DonPMitchell October 23rd, 2008 at 9:41 p.m. CDT (link)
These conspiracy theories about Obama's citizenship or his religion are an embarassment to our party.
First, like most conspiracy theories, they are just whack doodle. As if a secret of this magnitude could be kept, when countless people have access to the records in Hawaii or even to back issues of newspapers. If it were true, it would have been front-page news, not the stuff of spammer emails.
Second, it would be a sad day in America if these kinds of underhanded tactics actually determined the course of an election. Spreading disinformation like this is every bit as bad as the voter registration fraud committed by ACORN.
It embarasses the entire Republican party when a few people take this low road, when there are so many important issues and problems that need to be discussed and debated.
Goldwater: In your heart, you know he's right
Thanks for your concern.
Tbone October 23rd, 2008 at 10:25 p.m. CDT (link)
Now, run along.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Disinformation?
Vegas_Rick October 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. CDT (link)
It is matter of court record that a judge in PA ordered Obama to produce the long form of his birth certificate within 30 days. Instead of doing so, Obamas attorneys filed motions to delay and dismiss.
If there is no controversy surrounding place of birth, why wouldn’t he simply comply with the court order?
I call Moby.
Those who control energy, control society.
Why do they embarrass the Republican Party?
Shawn Gillogly October 24th, 2008 at 1:07 a.m. CDT (link)
It's not Republicans promoting this. Berg is a Clinton-supporting Democrat. So is Martin.
I honestly think Obama 'is' a citizen. But unlike some people, I do think this could be a serious constitutional crisis if it is not addressed pre-election. If it turns out he was a fraudulent and unqualified-by-law candidate, what does that mean? Does that mean he's instantly impeached? It certainly means his credibility is shot from day 1. If he's shown to be a liar on this, what 'will' people believe him on?
The only reason this is so absurd is the amount of wrangling he is doing when he could answer this simply with the production of the authentic documents at the courthouse requesting them. It's a slam dunk case...if he has them. In fact, it's so slam dunk, the only logical explanation for them not being provided and going through all these motions is if he is really guilty of being a fraud.
My guess is, that like most liberals, he's so mentally given to the legal system's maneuvering that he cannot bother to think about the simple solution. I'm inclined to think it's a nothingburger as well. But that doesn't mean that it's "our" problem. We didn't bring the suit, his own party did. We aren't promoting it, the Pumas are, more than anyone. I don't feel any great desire to shut them up. Why should I? They have a legitimate grievance.
"Liberals are always talking about pluralism, but that is not what they mean. In public school, Jews don't meet Christians. Christians don't meet Hindus. Everybody meets nothing."- Dennis Prager
I'll take "embarrased" over "Obama" any day. Embarrass me, please. <nt>
bs October 24th, 2008 at 1:10 a.m. CDT (link)
The Unofficial RedState FAQ 2.0 “You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say. ” - Martin Luther
a simple way for Barack to disprove the latest bombshell-compare his DNA to one of his brothers. n/t
pilgrim October 24th, 2008 at 5:29 a.m. CDT (link)
,
What is the difference between a Marxist and an anti-Marxist? A Marxist reads the books of Karl Marx. An anti-Marxist understands them.Ronald Reagan
Berg said something on Savage that was very interesting
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 24th, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. CDT (link)
He contends that when Obama travelled to Pakistan in 1981 he did it using his Indonesian passport. Which, Berg went on to say, makes sense because in 1981 travel for American citizens to Pakistan was forbidden. Seems BHO at least travelled out of the country as an Indonesian citizen. I don't know why BHO wouldn't address this lawsuit. Produce the BC and show what a loon Berg is. Unless it's because BHO doesn't have one.
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
Could this all be a DNC plan ?
Ken_Taylor October 24th, 2008 at 9:44 a.m. CDT (link)
Dave I have thought for several weeks that this whole debacle especially with the DNC helping him prevent opening the records could possibly follow two avenues.
First, the Clinton weary Dems nominate a candidate who can messmerize people into electing him. So they crash the Hillary candidacy which they did, (even the Fl and Mich deal was fake as they ended up seating ALL of the delegates who if counted initially would have given Hillary the nod), then they nominate a well known DNC Washington insider as VP, Biden.
So after the election and after electors vote in December Obama is found to not be eligable to be President under the Constitution which leaglly will allow it to fall to Biden. They get their Democrat President, the DNC denies any knowledge of wrong doing. The media plays it down as they are in the DNC tank. Biden takes the oath with possibly Hillary as his VP and then pardons Obama who goes back to being a community organizer.
While it sounds far fetched it is becoming more and more possible with each report of the birth certifacate manueverings and this type of move is not neyond the Dems.
instead, the latest distraction is Palin's medical records
JLenardDetroit October 24th, 2008 at 8:04 p.m. CDT (link)
Oh Please... We still haven't had Obambam's and he's running for President (just a one page letter from his Doc saying "he's fine." Does Palin's doc get to release a single page saying, "Health: OK" NEXT.).
RS:JLenardDetroit / Can we afford Obama SURRENDER doctrine? / Vote Psychology, Bandwagon effect, don't give up yet
+Obama Lies, and your Bank account will Die! (4/15 Truthers)
+Ignorance isn't Bliss, it is Expensive (costs us dearly every election)
+ NO to BI-partisanship, it is what keeps us "compromising" and giving in more and more to Socialistic tendencies
+ Yes to Presidential VETO, where has it been?
+ No to the "Obama Bin Biden" ticket
FAST TRACK OIL - NOW, NOW, NOW - Drill Here, Drill Now...
9/11 Day of Tragedy/Miracles / Web-Articles / Terror Strikes
Here is my question
ouwant2 October 24th, 2008 at 2:07 p.m. CDT (link)
1) Why not end this with a public display of his health records and birth certificate?
2) If his grandmother is dying, why not bring her great grand kids and wife with him to see her one last time?
This does not seem above board to me.
UMM OTAY <nt>
PaRep October 24th, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. CDT (link)
.
If Frank Marshall is his father it relieves him of the responsibility for his Kenyan kin.
QueenOfCups October 24th, 2008 at 5:19 p.m. CDT (link)
However, Frank Marshall is a scandal in and of itself, according to National Enquirer - of course, we know how reliable that rag is.
BEST Election Cycle EVAH!!! Every day a new twist!
Here's how McCain can win...
PrinceAlbert October 24th, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. CDT (link)
1.) Dump Palin for Lieberman - instant gratification for those like me that view Palin as woefully inadequate to assume the duties of POTUS. 2.) Denounce the Bush Presidency as an abject failure. Call him by his name, not just say "the last eight years". 3.) Promise to name at least four Dems to his Cabinet. There are plenty of right of center Dems that can do the job with distinction. 4.) Withdraw troops from Iraq. No country has ever "won" an occupation, this hasn't been a "war" since late 2003. 5.) Appoint Bill Clinton & GHWB as "Ambassadors at Large", and make it a Cabinet Position.
A shake up like this would would have the MSM covering the McCain campaign like white on rice. Never mind spending anymore ad dollars. Yes, it would not be to everyone's liking. But, this is McCains' last chance. I say, FK it, roll the dice.
can I help out all the DUNDERHEADS at RS
David Hinz October 24th, 2008 at 6:05 p.m. CDT (link)
NOBODY is about to dump ANYBODY on EITHER ticket less than two weeks out from the election.
Even SUGGESTING such a moronic idea at this late date is NOTHING but TROLL
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
You came here 37 hours ago
Dave_in_Fla October 24th, 2008 at 6:06 p.m. CDT (link)
And have posted all over this one thread. And now you advocate political suicide as a method of winning an election.
What next? McCain should concede and hope for a sympathy vote in the Electoral College?
"If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country."
Advice
IndependentfrMI October 25th, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. CDT (link)
Prince Albert- What is in the can you are smoking??
ILLINOIS_CONSERV October 24th, 2008 at 6 p.m. CDT (link)
Promise 4 dems in the cabinet? How long have you been following politics?
The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing - Edmund Burke
I didn't say you would like it...
PrinceAlbert October 24th, 2008 at 6:28 p.m. CDT (link)
I said that this would be a way for McCain to win.
I voted for the first time in the '92 elections while I was stationed in Incirlik, Turkey
And, yeah, four Dems in the cabinet. McCain is losing this election. Drastic times call for drastic measures. It's classic Rovian politics, get elected no matter the cost.
You mispelled Obama. It is not spelled R-O-V-I-A-N
Andy Smith October 24th, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. CDT (link)
"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-Abraham Lincoln
I'm pissing people off on the Left too...
PrinceAlbert October 24th, 2008 at 7:10 p.m. CDT (link)
My posts on dailyKOS and mediamatters don't go over well either. See, I am a bona fide centrist, as is most of the country, believe it or not. Here's where I stand on a few hot button issues:
I own banned assault weapons and enough ammo to protect my family and my property. (Hitler didn't invade Switzerland because it was neutral, he knew that every Swiss adult male was part of the Swiss Army and was required to maintain an arsenal)
I believe that what a woman does with her body is between her, her physician, and the deity of her choice.
I'm for lower taxes but I'm smart enough to know that taxes pay for my children's schools, the roads I drive on, and the military that protects our sovereignty.
I served in the military in Iraq and Bosnia under two different President's, and I saw how military intervention can work. Sadly, this administration fails in comparison.
I am concerned over Obama's lack of international experience but I am disgusted by McCains lack of a coherent strategy on so many issues, given how long he has served in the Senate and House.
I am flabbergasted at the appointment of Sarah Palin. She is by far the most unqualified VP in the history of the United States.
I believe in capital punishment in extreme cases of guilt but I am saddened how many have been murdered who may have been innocent.
I believe and support a strong military but I believe that it should be a deterrent force and not the POTUS' private police force.
So, read into what you will. Call me a moonbat, the left calls me a wingnut. But, like I said, there are many more of us centrists than either side would like to believe.
:murmuring: Most unqualified? Not while William Wheeler's name yet lives.
Moe Lane October 24th, 2008 at 7:20 p.m. CDT (link)
Yes, precisely.
I am Joe.
For that matter, Adlai Stevenson (one of Cleveland's VPs)...
Moe Lane October 24th, 2008 at 7:30 p.m. CDT (link)
...seems kind of dull, too.
Let's see:
Garret Hobart: boring. Charles Fairbanks: barely more experienced than Obama. Henry Wallace (freaking Commie): don't even get us started on that apparatchik. Spiro Agnew: Come on. Spiro Agnew. You have to give us Spiro.
I am Joe.
Moe don't forget Teddy Roosevelt
Dave_in_Fla October 24th, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. CDT (link)
I seem to recall that her qualifications are pretty close to his.
"If they were merely incompetent, then at least SOME of their actions would have been to the benefit of the country."
Dude, I think that Sarah's the real deal, but come on:
Moe Lane October 24th, 2008 at 9:18 p.m. CDT (link)
Teddy Roosevelt came out of the womb ready to be President. Vice President was merely for the extra points.
I am Joe.
"See, I am a bona fide centrist"
Tbone October 24th, 2008 at 7:34 p.m. CDT (link)
idiot would be more accurate. In fact, the only people that I less respect for than the far left are 'Centrists" who can't believe in anything other than what's on the hand at which they are looking.
You poor political slob.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Centrist, lets see...
1SGinTN October 24th, 2008 at 8:17 p.m. CDT (link)
Centrist=Moderate=lukewarm
Lukewarm= "..neither hot nor cold -I spit you out of my mouth"
No respect, ditto.
Tu Ne Cede Malis -Virgil
Yep , I'm with Tbone on this one. You are
janis October 24th, 2008 at 8:26 p.m. CDT (link)
just plain irritating. You might think you are "like most of the country", but you aren't. Most of the people I know, on either side of the aisle, have definite opinions that govern their lives and choices. You are the human equivalent of jello.
To quote Mike Reagan: the only thing in the middle of the road are yellow stripes and dead armadilloes.
zsmvf6 October 24th, 2008 at 8:29 p.m. CDT (link)
nt
"There are two parties: the stupid party and the evil party. I'm a proud member of the stupid party, but occasionally, we do things that are both stupid and evil - and we call that bipartisanship." ~Dinesh D'Souza
So how's that Hawaii thing panning out?
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 6:53 a.m. CDT (link)
Obama's back on the campaign trail and no mention of him showing his face at the courthouse. Just some video of him cruising the old neighborhood in his slippahs'. Saying goodbye, probably for the last time, to his ailing grandmother. You guys have a right to be as red meat as you want. But, Jesus, give the guy a break for 24 hours and let him spend some time with his grandmother without you clowns screaming "conspiracy". Where is that fabled compassionate conservatism?
Remarkably thin skin for a dKos diarist.
Moe Lane October 25th, 2008 at 7:06 a.m. CDT (link)
Or do you simply have a pet armadillo?
Moe
PS: I don't give a flying leap about the Hawaii story, myself.
PPS: You still haven't granted us Spiro Agnew.
I am Joe.
I live in Hawaii...
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. CDT (link)
and I seriously doubt that there is a live armadillo in the entire state. Yeah, okay, I'll give you Agnew. But, didn't he resign after it was found out that...oh, never mind.
I find it funny that I am attacked for being a centrist by both sides. As if there are strict party lines and no room for varying degrees of opinion. Which prominent Republican said that the GOP was a big tent, with room for differing opinions?
And, yes, I am amused by some of you on this site. Just look at the title of this thread. But is anyone questioning it now that the trip has come and gone? Heavens no! Hippocratic BS is neither red or blue.
You may want to contemplate that roughly 50%...
Moe Lane October 25th, 2008 at 9:05 a.m. CDT (link)
...of the self-described "moderates" who pop up here usually don't even bother to use a different email address than the ones that they use for their progressive activities (translation: they're lying about being moderates). Another 30% use what they think is a virgin email, but make the mistake of [THIS TELL DELETED FOR SECURITY REASONS]. Half of the remainder have one of five or six reliable tells; the only one that I'm going to reveal is the infamous "Gee. We have six people using the same talking point, just after it appeared on [Insert Lefty blog here]" one, mostly because everybody knows it anyway. So, 9 out of 10 don't even make it out of the gate.
Personally, I think that faking your political views online is in serious contention for being the single most pointless hobby known to man, but it's apparently popular among a certain crowd.
I am Joe.
Now here's what I'm talking about, PrinceAlbert.
Moe Lane October 25th, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. CDT (link)
Take a look at this guy delphi. Seems reasonable enough, right? You might even call him "moderate." But you check out his actual site via this link and it turns out that he's just another guy who drops his pants whenever he reads another bitterly misogynist, anti-Palin screed by Andy Sullivan.
Heck, he can't even tell us apart from Michelle Malkin! Believe me, we can, and so can she. :)
We get somebody like this. Every. Single. Day.
I am Joe.
It's nigh on to impossible to work up compassion
janis October 25th, 2008 at 8:58 a.m. CDT (link)
for a known liar who announces he is going to Hawaii to be with his gravely ill grandma and then waits three days or so to do it. Most of us have had experiences with seriously ill relatives and we didn't wait three or four days to get to them while we danced on Ellen's TV show and campaigned in a variety of places.
I don't know why he went to Hawaii, but I have learned that this man seldom tells the truth about anything.
Fence sitter
IndependentfrMI October 25th, 2008 at 8:30 a.m. CDT (link)
Depending on who will give you what depends on who you will vote for and support. Do you support failing schools? Do you support the Constitution or do you think it is a living documenmt? How do you feel about secret ballots? Do you support American's independence from foreign oil?
Smaller government less taxes who will you support.
Are you flabbergasted by Barry's inexperience?
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 9:22 a.m. CDT (link)
You're no centrist, you're an Obama tool. Just go back and look at the words you used to describe Obama (concerned) and McCain (disgusted). You have real animus for McCain, but you only have "concern" about The One. Your words betray you tool.
Tim Schieferecke
Just so we're clear...
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. CDT (link)
I said I was disgusted by Palin, not McCain. And if McCain had not run in 2000, and been subjected to the worst kind of slander by his own party, and had then not try to use those very same tactics in this election, then I'd have enough respect for him to consider voting Republican. It's not the party so much as it is the individual. I just can't bring myself to trust the man. That doesn't make me evil, or wrong, or unpatriotic. As to Obama, I have serious doubts about his ability. But I also know that the Dem leadership knows this also, and will not allow him to to make an ass out of the party. Say what you will about them, they are not as stupid as you assume. McCain has enemies throughout the Republican party. Do you so easily forget the slams he took from right wing talk before it was clear that he would be nominated? Rush tore him apart, and now he's your Great White Hope? I'm sorry, but my memory extends past the last few months.
ORLY, Prince Albert? Does your memory also
janis October 25th, 2008 at 10:45 a.m. CDT (link)
include hearing Joe Biden say that Obama wasn't ready to be president back during the primaries?
"...the leadership won't let him make an ass out of the party." For starters, an ass is your logo, remember? Other than that, the Dem party--or the ultimate lefties, for that is what remains of the Dem party--made true asses of themselves already. The fact that someone like you supports them is just further evidence of what they have devolved into.
Just out of curiosity, do you even read what you write?
Clarity and You
MikeO October 25th, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. CDT (link)
The only clarity even remotely near you is the glass bottom of your bong after you finish chugging the water.
My bong is ceramic...
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 11:10 a.m. CDT (link)
thank you very much. And hasn't the Republican party devolved into the ultimate righties also? Tit for tat. Once again, for the short bus riders on this thread, I am not a dem, nor am I a repub. This site, like all those on the left, is nothing more than a place where like minded people come to slap each other on the back. There is no debate, no real questioning of ideas. You see me as the enemy and you attack me simply because I don't expound and agree with every thing you say. Where is the democratic discourse on the real issues facing us all as Americans? Certainly not here. Birds of a feather I get. But who among you has the courage to truly debate an issue rather than simply hurl insults? I am trying to be respectful (mostly) in my responses. If none of you would like to have an honest discussion about the merits of each candidate then just tell me that and I'll go away. I was honestly drawn here by the wingnuts claiming Obama's BC was forged, but I expected to find at least a few of you who were able to have a civil discourse on this election. My bad.
He's in the can...
29Victor October 25th, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. CDT (link)
...does no one get it?
PrinceAlbert in
thea can!!C'mon, am I the only one who made prank phone calls?
I Am Joe.
The key word here is "honest." You don't
janis October 25th, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. CDT (link)
want honest discussion, you just want to irritate people. According to you, you get the same response over at dKos and Huffington Post as well. Doesn't that tell you something, Al?
Yes it does...
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. CDT (link)
It tells me that both sides have devolved into nothing more than Mutual Admiration Societies, unwilling to even listen to what the other side brings to the table. Kinda like our foreign policy for the last eight years, of which McCain has disagreed with openly. Democracy, as an idea, cannot and will not prosper in such an intolerable clime. Someone is going to lose on November 4th, of that we are certain. Can we, as Americans, come together to heal the divides that separate us? Make no mistake, as a veteran of war, and as a parent, and as a husband, and as an American, I believe that we all have more in common than what we may disagree over. Do any of you possess the wisdom or maturity to be able to accept the will of the people should it be that your candidate loses? Or will you continue to label the other side as Socialists, or Arab sympathizers, or worse, and continue spewing your hatefulness? Or can you grow beyond that to work for the betterment of this great nation? The choice is yours. Choose wisely.
Stupid is as stupid does. Socialist is as socialist does.
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 12:37 p.m. CDT (link)
We're trying to win an election, not tackle our own quarterback. We want to defeat leftists, not find middle ground with them with less than two weeks to go. If you want to attack Sarah Palin for her inexperience but ignore the fact that your man Barry has a lot less actual executive experience than her, then you're nothing but a tool. Maybe you just hate women.
Tim Schieferecke
ACORN
MikeO October 25th, 2008 at 12:50 p.m. CDT (link)
If Obama/Biden eke out a "win," how will we know that the election reflects the "will of the people?"
ACORN's massive vote fraud makes that impossible.
Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.
Socialist?
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. CDT (link)
Then burn your SSAN card and promise me that you will forfeit any future Social Security payments due to you. And the next time your kid falls and breaks an arm, forget about calling 911. Potholes becoming trenches on your street? Don't bother calling your local municipality, it's your problem, brah. Some thug just robbed you at gunpoint? Forget about the police, that's a "socialist" benefit you chose to do away with. Injured your arm on the job and can't work anymore? Tough luck, you're on your own. Find a new way to support your family. That job at Burger King ain't payin' the bills? Don't look to Uncle Sam to support your deadbeat ass, who cares if your kids go hungry, we ain't livin' in no Socialist country. You already live in a socialist country, you short bus riding idiot. No civilization can exist without programs designed to provide the most basic of services. Did you not learn this in High School? Oh, and by the way, TAXES pay for civil services. If you don't like that equation, take your family and go live in an abandoned school bus in Alaska and hunt moose and grow your own onions. Word of advice: make absolutely, positively certain that your wife is on the same page as you. I'm guessing she kind of likes the idea that if little Tommy breaks his arm, EMS is gonna be there pretty quick. Voila, "S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M"!
You're a Strawman General in the Obamanation Army. LOL
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 1:56 p.m. CDT (link)
If I could trade my Social (ist) Security card in and never have to pay one more cent into that FDR abomination, I would. Even though I've paid into it for almost 20 years, I'd abandon any claim to benefits if I could just walk away, and I'd do so happily. As for services such as police and ambulance and military and roads, you know basic infrastructure, I have no problem being taxed for those things. You're the first person I've ever heard call those things socialist. I just lit your strawman army on fire with my flying monkeys of logic you little obamatool. I'm getting in your head, ain't I?
Tim Schieferecke
Then what is the definition?
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 2:37 p.m. CDT (link)
You, by default, acknowledge that Fire, Police, and EMS service, are NOT socialism? May I ask you what your definition is?
"I just want to spread the wealth around"
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 2:46 p.m. CDT (link)
The confiscation of a taxpayer's hard earned money for the purpose of equalizing economic outcomes among Americans. Taxes are necessary for ensuring Constitutional mandates are met. It says no where in the Constitution that they should be raised to "spread the wealth around." That's Marxist theory, not Founder's theory.
Tim Schieferecke
Here's the definition Al
Vegas_Rick October 25th, 2008 at 3:48 p.m. CDT (link)
"To each acording to their need, from each according to their ability." Or, words to that effect.
Next question.
Those who control energy, control society.
"Do any of you possess the wisdom or maturity to be able to accept the will of the people should it be that your candidate loses?"
Vegas_Rick October 25th, 2008 at 3:45 p.m. CDT (link)
Not when the will of the people is to turn away from the constitution, to turn this country hard left, and to give credence to our current "me first" society.
I for one, will fight all the harder. If that make me unwise or immature, screw you.
Those who control energy, control society.
"Do any of you possess the wisdom or maturity to be able to accept the will of the people should it be that your candidate loses? "
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 4:25 p.m. CDT (link)
If it were actually the free will of an informed citizenry I wouldn't like it but I'd have to accept it.
But we aren't dealing with an informed citizenry here and everyone knows it. The press has made a concerted effort to deny information about the candidate to the citizenry; the Obama campaign has made a concerted effort to conceal the history of the candidate; the Obama campaign has made a concerted effort to promote voter fraud; the Obama campaign has made a concerted effort to violate the voter registration and campaign finance laws of the nation and the several states...
An election won that way is a fraud and any man who promotes it is a fraud and a criminal. Should he be elected he will get from me the same kind of support and respect that the left has given to President Bush for the past eight years.
The left poisoned the well in 2000 when Gore went to court and they have been pouring poison in the well every day since then; the left has only one goal and that is the destruction of the United States as a free nation.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Not when that win is based on
c17wife October 25th, 2008 at 4:44 p.m. CDT (link)
lies and thuggery of the worst kind. And not when the press has given said "winner" a complete pass onhis lack of qualifications. No, I'm not about to accept that. I hate Barack Obama and what he stands for. He and his minions are pure evil. He may win the election, but he will NEVER be my president. And, I will start the effort to defeat him long before he is even sworn in.
Duty is ours, outcomes belong to God.~Mike Pence
Ummmm...
PrinceAlbert October 25th, 2008 at 10:52 p.m. CDT (link)
Did God teach you how to "hate"?
No, he allowed her the ability to see.
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 10:55 p.m. CDT (link)
n/t
Tim Schieferecke
Will of whom? People casting illegal votes to sway/steal the election?? NO
JLenardDetroit October 25th, 2008 at 5:05 p.m. CDT (link)
The ones piling into OH (and probably PA and IN) to cast illegal votes for the Obaminable one?
The Dead, Pets, etc... that we have seen over and over Detroit, Chicago, etc... to artificially inflate Democrat vote totals in Democrat controlled areas of States to OVER-RIDE THE WILL of the rest of the State?!?!
The countless Illegal Immigrants that have been granted Drivers Licenses (and by extension, through Motor Voter fraud... er... law... Voter registration) and who will again cast Illegal Ballots!?!? To vote themselves FREE HC, lax Immigration enforcement, College tuition for other Illegals, etc.. We can discuss whether these things should continue, but it is up to AMERICAN CITIZENS to decide these things!
The MSM attempting to call the election NOW (let alone early on Election night) for ObamaBinBiden in hopes to suppress Republican turnout!!!
The Felons (FL/GA notably in the news already) that are not allowed by law the vote who will be casting ballots anyway!?!? I personally believe that not all people convicted (depends on crime) should lose vote (once time is served) but that is a whole long different discussion (one reason anti-gunners want Felony gun convictions against ordinary citizens, removes their pro-2nd-Amendment vote).
We know you Socialists would open the Vote up to anyone/everyone here, knowing most non-citizens want to vote themselves goodies and therefore more of your Socialist, Progressive, Leftist Democrat candidates.
RS:JLenardDetroit / Can we afford Obama SURRENDER doctrine? / Vote Psychology, Bandwagon effect, don't give up yet
+Obama Lies, and your Bank account will Die! (4/15 Truthers)
+Ignorance isn't Bliss, it is Expensive (costs us dearly every election)
+ NO to BI-partisanship, it is what keeps us "compromising" and giving in more and more to Socialistic tendencies
+ Yes to Presidential VETO, where has it been?
+ No to the "Obama Bin Biden" ticket
FAST TRACK OIL - NOW, NOW, NOW - Drill Here, Drill Now...
9/11 Day of Tragedy/Miracles / Web-Articles / Terror Strikes
This discussion could only be held at Republican sites
JLenardDetroit October 24th, 2008 at 7:57 p.m. CDT (link)
Democrats don't pay any attention to the Constitution.
RS:JLenardDetroit / Can we afford Obama SURRENDER doctrine? / Vote Psychology, Bandwagon effect, don't give up yet
+Obama Lies, and your Bank account will Die! (4/15 Truthers)
+Ignorance isn't Bliss, it is Expensive (costs us dearly every election)
+ NO to BI-partisanship, it is what keeps us "compromising" and giving in more and more to Socialistic tendencies
+ Yes to Presidential VETO, where has it been?
+ No to the "Obama Bin Biden" ticket
FAST TRACK OIL - NOW, NOW, NOW - Drill Here, Drill Now...
9/11 Day of Tragedy/Miracles / Web-Articles / Terror Strikes
It depends
leftylurker October 25th, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. CDT (link)
Sadly, it seems that most people pay attention to the parts of the Constitution that they like best.
I'll accept a lot of criticism for Democratic abuse of the Constitution, but only if there's an answer to the current administration's wholesale disregard for the Fourth and Sixth Amendments. A disregard, i might add, that a lot of people on the right have seen fit to applaud.
I assume you're talking about the granting of Constitutional rights to terrorists?
Tim_Schieferecke October 25th, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. CDT (link)
Does subject to the jurisdiction thereof mean nothing to you? Terrorists are NOT CITIZENS you bleeding heart lib. Personally, I'm damn glad we're eavesdropping on these devils who mean to do us harm. As to holding them indefinitely, I never lose a bit of sleep knowing that some of the bad guys are locked up forever. Maybe we should just follow the Geneva Convention and kill them on sight since they're not in uniforms when they engage us.
Tim Schieferecke
Perhaps ...
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 1:23 p.m. CDT (link)
... you could enlighten us on the "wholesale disregard" part. Please confine yourself to "wholesale disregarding."
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
Jurisdiction is important
leftylurker October 25th, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. CDT (link)
I agree with that. And I take back the wholesale disregard comment as bombastic.
But I do take exception to the comments that I'm referring to rights for terrorists. I'm referring to denying U.S. citizens who have not been proven guilty of any crime being detained. Take, for example, the facts in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, 542 U.S. 507 (2004).
Frankly
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 1:43 p.m. CDT (link)
I think Hamdi is a difficult call.
One the one hand we shouldn't go around detaining citizens without due process.
On the other hand our civil laws were not designed to deal with people returning from a war zone after meeting, and plotting, with foreign terrorists who intend to commit acts of mass murder.
The crux of the problem is that far too many people in this country think that the Jihadist and their sympathizers do not pose a serious threat; its as if they have bought into the old TV programs that at the last minute the FBI will rush in and prevent the terrorist from blowing up the bridge.
Americans in general are far too complacent about the safety and cost of their freedoms. We were isolated from danger for a long time and when 9/11 happened people, and especially people on the left, simply wanted to hide under the covers and pretend that the threat is not real.
Fortunately for us we have managed to raise a sufficient number of Americans who value nation so highly that they will signup to defend all of us, even the ones who hate them. I suspect a few years of Obamanization will put an end to that.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
I agree with a lot of what you say
leftylurker October 25th, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. CDT (link)
Hamdi bothered me because it struck at one of the core elements of our legal/Constitutional framework.
I agree with you that our laws aren't adequate to deal with an enemy who is a US citizen who takes up arms as an irregular against our nation.
I have so much respect for people who enlist to serve their country, and I do think that military service has a special place in the hierarchy of national service that something like AmeriCorps or whatnot cannot even remotely equal.
In my own way, I chose to study law, because I believe in my nation, and I believe in the rule of law. I think that a case like Hamdi's is particularly important for patriots to fight, because it ultimately speaks to us all.
I was appalled that so many Americans accepted the argument that a member of the executive branch could declare another American citizen an "enemy combatant" and then strip him of his civil rights. I hated it when Clinton did it to the Branch Davidians, and I hated it when Bush did it to Americans who were implicated in terrorism.
Don't get me wrong. Death cannot come quickly enough to those who oppose my country. But my country is a noble one, based upon principles. If we violate our own beliefs we're no better than [edited] people who behead infidels.
Well, a little better...but not enough.
Audio tape?
Common_Cents October 25th, 2008 at 11:04 a.m. CDT (link)
Berg now claims to have an audio tape of Obama's grandmother acknowledging his Kenyan birth.
*But Philip J. Berg, a former deputy attorney general for Pennsylvania, told the Michael Savage talk radio program tonight that the document is forged and that he has a tape recording he will soon release.
"This has been a real sham he's pulled off for the last 20 months," Berg told Savage. "I'll release it [the tape] in a day or two, affidavits from her talking to a certain person. I heard the tape. She was speaking [to someone] here in the United States."
He said the telephone call was from Obama's paternal grandmother affirming she "was in the delivery room in Kenya when he was born Aug. 4, 1961."
Berg said he believed it also was a complication that Obama's mother divorced his father, married and moved to Indonesia for several years and Obama attended school there at a time when, Berg said, only Indonesia citizens were allowed in schools. Records that are available from Indonesia revealed Obama was registered in school as Barry Soetoro, and his religion was listed as Islam.
When Obama later returned to Hawaii, within the United States, there should have been a government document affirming his citizenship, but that also cannot be found. If that was not processed properly, Berg said, Obama would be in a situation even worse than not being a natural-born citizen.
"If he didn't go through immigration, he now is illegal and has been an illegal alien. He couldn't even hold the position of senator for Illinois," Berg said.
Further, Berg said he suspected Obama's college records may indicate he received aid as a foreigner, and that's why those records have been withheld by the campaign.
"I really think it's because it probably indicates he's from Kenya, or Indonesia, or received foreign aid," Berg said.
"I feel very confident saying these things," Berg told Savage.*
Ask not what I can do for my country, ask what my country can do for me. Washington Elected Elite
Snopes
GreenAces October 25th, 2008 at 1:27 p.m. CDT (link)
Snopes says FALSE
An then we have Anti-semite "internet journalist" Andy Martin, the guy who called a judge a "crooked, slimy Jew" whne he wasn't busy spreading rumors about Obama the Muslim Manchurian candidate.
Good grief - isn't this kind of sludge better tended too by the freaks at FreeRepublic?
I do not know
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 1:46 p.m. CDT (link)
whether Obama is or is not a citizen by birth.
I do know that in addition to his socialism, his lying, his attempts to rig the election, I am offended by his arrogance; an arrogance that assumes that he has no obligation to prove to the people he would lead that the concerns are unfounded.
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
well, she is dying now
grahamgreenefan October 25th, 2008 at 3:55 p.m. CDT (link)
In summer her health was okay. See new reports on the trip. Also, I read up on some fact checks. Obama has released multiple personal documents, and they all check out with everything he has ever said. Andy Martin is little more credible than Berg. j.r.
I don't think any of this matters
Cicero October 25th, 2008 at 4 p.m. CDT (link)
Where Obama was born does not matter. The only law that matters to me on this issue is American law.
American law is clear, if one of the parents is an American citizen then the child is an American citizen.
The only possible way that Obama could be ineligible for the presidency by not being a citizen would be if during his stay in Indonesia his legal guardians (mother and step-father) decided to repudiate his American citizenship (supposedly in favor of Indonesian citizenship).
I see no reason for his parents to do such a thing. American citizenship is highly prized and would not be deliberately endangered be any rational person.
The argument being made seems to be that Obama's adoption automatically repudiates his citizenship. I do not believe this follows under American law (I could care less what Indonesian law says).
Therefor, as much as I want Obama to lose I do not believe there is any significant challenge to his legal eligibility for the Presidency.
That said, I think it is entirely reasonable to expect Obama to produce a certified birth certificate. After all, the government expects me to do so for far less important things then determining eligibility to be President.
I just don't see there being any fire, no matter how much people are yelling that they see smoke.
"American law is clear, if one of the parents is an American citizen then the child is an American citizen."
Vegas_Rick October 25th, 2008 at 4:12 p.m. CDT (link)
No true. Ask any service member who's child was born abroad and NOT on an American military installation. If you disagree, provide a link to support your assertion.
Those who control energy, control society.
waste.of.time
David Hinz October 25th, 2008 at 4:19 p.m. CDT (link)
ol-tray
The Minority Report -- The HinzSight Report -- TMRB.tv -- MFOB
My apologies, apparently it is more complicated then either of us thought
Cicero October 25th, 2008 at 10:05 p.m. CDT (link)
Wikipedia
For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:
A person's record of birth abroad, if registered with a U.S. consulate or embassy, is proof of his or her citizenship. Such a person may also apply for a passport or a Certificate of Citizenship to have a record of his or her citizenship. Such documentation is often useful to prove citizenship in lieu of the availability of an American birth certificate.
Different rules apply for persons born abroad to one U.S. citizen before November 14, 1986. United States law on this subject changed multiple times throughout the twentieth century, and the law as it existed at the time of the individual's birth controls.
So maybe the rules are different for Barrak Obama. Still, I doubt there is any real fire here. I wish Obama would just produce his birth certificate though. I mean I've had to before to get my first driver's license, why doesn't he?
You are simply incorrect <nt>
John Steele October 25th, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. CDT (link)
John
Why would God invent something like whiskey? To keep the Irish from ruling the world of course.
JUDGES
Suzz October 25th, 2008 at 9:52 p.m. CDT (link)
I am very concerned about what BHO has said about how he would select supreme court justices. That is what is scary.
Obama has turned in his birth certificate.
oneman October 26th, 2008 at 2:09 a.m. CDT (link)
Although many questions surrounded it. Politifact has found it to be genuine. Interesting read, I have posted the url.
http://tinyurl.com/5vrus3