The Best Way to Use Color and Imagery to Improve Your Marketing

The Best Way to Use Color and Imagery to Improve Your Marketing (AllBusiness.com?s Chris Bjorklund interviews Joseph Carrabis, founder of NextStage Evolution, whose cutting-edge research details how color and color imagery impact direct-response marketing and e-branding.)

Chris Bjorklund: You?re listening to the AllBusiness Podcast. I?m Chris Bjorklund. If you?re getting this through iTunes or RSS feed or an online streaming media player, you have the opportunity to hear more valuable advice from top business experts right here on AllBusiness.com. We?ll be right back after this brief message from our sponsor, Comcast.

Chris Bjorklund: Most people will say their favorite color is blue?but does that mean blue will attract the most eyes to your direct mail pieces or website? Joseph Carrabis, founder of NextStage Evolution, and an expert featured on AllBusiness.com, is studying how different colors and color imagery affect brand recognition, and has detailed recommendations for businesses trying to reach specific audiences. Welcome to the AllBusiness Podcast, Joseph.

Joseph Carrabis: Thank you so much.

Chris Bjorklund: You know, most of us can easily talk about which colors are our favorite; which colors really attract our attention, but we really don?t know why. Is this hard for companies and marketing teams to figure out, as well?

Joseph Carrabis: It?s a good question?I don?t think it?s a strain for them so much as this inability to expand what they have been trained to look at. Let me give you an example?people know what colors they favor, and what attracts their attention, but they don?t know why. Now, I?ll accept that?s true for every lay person, but I have difficulty believing it?s a challenge for marketers and advertisers who are willing to do a little bit of homework. Material is everywhere, on this subject. We, actually, on the process of our research, we were stunned about how much material was out there?our paper cites 95 separate other papers in our research. So, you can find this stuff. Now, when you get to individuals and demographics, and gender, and age, and all that kind of stuff?favorite colors and attraction colors have neuro, social, and cycle linguistic reason for being what they are??Oh, my God. Joseph?s already talking with big words,? don?t worry about it.

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: There?s an iMedia Connection column I wrote, ?Usability Studies 101?Follow the Eye??and I?ll be providing links on my blog for all of your listeners. In, at least, the six colors?that?s it, six colors, that everybody recognizes, regardless of culture, language, age, and gender?the reason that everybody recognizes these colors is because the brain is hard-wired for them. Once you get those six colors, you?re going into culture, language, nature versus nurture, and all that kind of stuff. So, for your listeners, if you want to get somebody?s attention on a website, here it is: black, white, red, yellow, green, and blue. Those are attention colors. Now, what you?ve got to remember is attention is not the same as attraction?I probably have your attention if you?re attracted to me, but I can also have your attention for a lot of other reasons. ?I?m giving you a warning,? ?I?m watching where you?re putting ? you?re watching where I?m putting my birthday present, your birthday present,? ?I?m driving like a lunatic, and you want to get out of my way,? you know, recognition and response to colors deals with something called ?Signal Detection Theory??and it?s a big phrase, but don?t worry about it. Again, because all you need to really know is that if you use an attention color?the black, white, red, yellow, green, and blue?you don?t have to use them a lot to get people?s attention. But if you want to attract somebody, now, that comes after you get their attention, then you need to use those cultural, those language-specific colors, the nature versus nurture colors, the gender and age-specific colors. Once I get your attention?and I don?t have to do that hard to get it?then I can do the attraction. So, that?s the first one for you listeners.

Chris Bjorklund: So, you?re saying you have to go in a little bit deeper to avoid making big and costly mistakes?and I?m sure you?ve seen a lot of those?

Joseph Carrabis: Yes. It?s amazing, as I said earlier, the material is out there, it?s just that most people don?t have the training to know, you know, the brain only wants to see things in certain ways, so, give them what the brain wants. The minute the brain says, ?OK, I can deal with this,? you?re in; you have them.

Chris Bjorklund: What are some examples that you?ve seen of huge mistakes in a brand or a logo?

Joseph Carrabis: Well, I?m kind of hoping nobody here loses business, but the one that ? there are some that really stand out?and this falls into the category of what we call here at NextStage the ?It Will Ship and It Will Be a Success Mentality,? that a lot of marketing people have. That?s a wonderful attitude to have, provided that you?ve done your homework, and the market exists for the product. Big example?the Segway?I don?t know how many people ? I?ve never seen people on a Segway ? that?s not quite correct, I?ve seen them on TV, on a Segway, that?s it ? the Apple Newton?incredible product, way ahead of its time, but it never ? those products never really filled a need. More modern example?it comes from the automotive world; the automotive world is really rife with these things?there is a product, once I explain what it is, I?m sure everybody will pick up on it, it?s the ?Jummer??it?s what people call the ?Jeep Commander,? because it?s a Jeep that looks like a Hummer, so as to capture that market?so, everybody calls it the ?Jummer? ?

Chris Bjorklund: Got to keep the ?J??

Joseph Carrabis: You got it. GM?s problem was if they got rid of one of the most popular and reliable products, the Jeep Cherokee Sport, replaced it with the Jeep Liberty, pushed it to the Cherokee audience?which thought that the Liberty was a joke?and they?ve been coming out with different models of Jeeps to play catch-up ever since?the latest is the Patriot?if you look at the Patriot, it?s pretty much the Cherokee Sport, if nature ? if automotive evolution had been allowed to fulfill it?s course, bring this back to the concepts of color, color usage, color iconography?when you have things that need to fill a niche ? we?re going to speak about evolution for a second, the way these products, whether it?s the Jummer or whatever else, the PDA, which ? the Apple Newton was a primitive form of the PDA, if you will, there?s a ? like an ecological, biological niche that has to be filled, and the changes that the ? the new models Jeep that keeps on coming, that GM keeps on coming out with, the Jeep, that?s an animal evolving to fill the niche created by the extinction of the Jeep Cherokee. The niche?companies need to remember that filling the niche is one thing, making something appealing, in that niche, is marketing?that?s where color comes in. High-priced cars will only show up in royal and authoritative colors, OK? You know, I?ve been driving down the road, you?ve driven down the road, you?re listeners have driven down the road, and you?ve seen these expensive cars, you know, $80,000, $90,000 cars, and higher cost cars with these bizarre, unnamable colors?and you?re driving down the road, and you look at the person next to you and say, ?Who thought that was a good color for that car?? Now, the funny thing is ?shartrus,? whatever color that actually is ? I had actually asked somebody in my office what that color really was, would work on a ?BMW 7 Series,? it will work fine in a Toyota Matrix because of the differences in the target market. So, here?s the general rule of thumb??Bright and shiny works for younger audiences in all things,? you have a younger audience, they get ?bright and shiny,? you go with the ?shartrus??they want to be different, they want to establish an identity, they want to know that they?re part of the people out there. ?Bright and shiny? will work for older audiences re-experiencing their youth. And it?s a dangerous thing to say, but let?s face it?I?m in that category, sometimes?somebody my age buying a Corvette or a Lotus, wants to be seen?I?m not buying it to hide when I?m going down the road. So, in those cases, if that?s your market, royal and authoritative colors won?t go?that won?t work. Whatever you?re selling, cars or toothpicks, you need to remember that all colors make a statement, you need to know that statement ? what that statement is to your audience. And it?s something that we emphasize repeatedly?you have to know your audience better than you know yourself?and part of knowing them is color choice. You know, whoever is listening, I?m willing to bet they don?t know what their partners?, their life-partners? favorite color is.

Chris Bjorklund: That?s probably true.

Joseph Carrabis: Well, that?s the point. You know, you have a market, you have a product, you know the market, you know the demographic?you want to know what colors that product should be? Simple thing to do ? simple thing to do?go walk among them for half a day.

Chris Bjorklund: Ask. Ask.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes, ask and observe, and, you know, you see what colors they?re wearing?OK, that?s the color.

Chris Bjorklund: Big clue. Now, Joseph, let?s talk about one of the big challenges for companies of all sizes today, which is how to move their brands from their brick-and-mortar to online, and back again, vice-versa?you?re spending a lot of time looking at this issue, and I know that you?re really on the cutting edge with your analysis?can you talk about a few of your findings?

Joseph Carrabis: Yes, I would be happy to. I?ll give you four things that fall right off the top, from what we?ve discovered so far. If you?re a long-established brick-and-mortar brand, and you?re really well recognized in a give demographic, just transfer you?re brand, your logo, your identity directly online?don?t modify it, don?t change it, don?t do anything differently. If your audience is an older audience?a more mature audience?and you?re a long-established brand, offline brand, you?re going to have a much easier road to go when you go online because the very fact that your audience has had experience with you for a long period of time?you know, age and experience, they go together, we hope?that means you?re going to be easily recognized, they?re going to know who you are, ?OK, you?re my old friend,? you know, ?I?ve worked with you before,? ?You?ve been nice to me ? blah, blah, blah,? so, you don?t have to worry about it. Another thing that we found, which I always get a kick out of, is if you subtly change your offline color schemes?not a lot, don?t go nuts with it, don?t make it into a laser-like image or something?but if you subtly change the color scheme, if it?s red, go to a darker red, or a lighter red?but don?t go away from red, just darker or lighter?this can really be a good benefit to you. The reason is the human brain is wired to look for and find pattern?that was my last AllBusiness.com column, about ?Play a Game to Learn a Design Trick,? covered this. People, in their life, they look for familiar pattern?that?s how we manage to survive; that?s how we manage to live our lives everyday. We navigate the familiar?the layout of your living room, the newspaper always shows up at 4 o?clock?these things let us know our world is safe, and we can anticipate it?which means we can plan for it; which means we?re good. You don?t really notice that your living room has changed layout, and the paper hasn?t arrived until there?s a change in the pattern?and that?s where the concern begins. So, if you?re transferring an existing brick-and-mortar brand online, a subtle change?subtle change?in the color scheme, or the orientation of the image sends the brain to very interesting, very contradictory messages. The first message, ?This is familiar, so, it?s safe,? the human brain will say, ?I?ve seen this before; I recognize this pattern; it?s good; it?s my old friend; I?m happy; OK.? The second message, though, because you?ve made these subtle, very subtle, color changes, is, ?This is different, so, pay attention.? Now, here?s where good marketing exists ? here?s where good marketing, in my estimation, what we?ve witnessed, really makes itself known, because it?s where these two messages intersect??This is safe,? and, ?Pay attention.? If you dramatically alter the color scheme or the orientation, then the ?Pay attention? message is just overpowering?the ?Safety? message is completely gone, and you will lose consumers. You?re going to lose loyal consumers because you?re no longer ?safe??you?re no longer ?comfortable.? You want to have that intersection, ?This is safe,? and, ?Pay attention.? It?s kind of like when a good friend wants to whisper something in your ear?you pay attention.

Chris Bjorklund: Let?s talk about men and women?that?s always an interesting topic?and we do see the world differently, we react to colors differently in color imagery?what have you learned about this, and how it relates to branding and e-branding?

Joseph Carrabis: I learned that I could get into a lot of trouble when I answer this question.

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: I?ll start it by saying that this is all part of a five-year study, and we?re continuing this research?we?re updating it as we go. So ? and I?m also going to offer upfront that this is going to sound chauvinistic, misogynistic, androgenic, whatever?and it?s just research, folks?you know?

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: So, anyway ?

Chris Bjorklund: Thanks for the warning.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes, really, women are universally better in identifying a brick-and-mortar brand that goes online than men are?that?s it. You can show women an altered brand or logo, or corporate identity, and they will go, ?Oh, yes, I got that one. I know what that is.? Now, there?s anthropologic and neurological reasons for this, and if you ? if your listeners really want to get bored, I can go into it, but, probably not worth the time. The nutshell, the take-away for marketers, is that women can tolerate greater variation in offline and online brands than men can?that?s it in a nutshell. Your listeners and everybody else, again, please forgive me. This is what I say to people when I?m doing presentations at conferences and stuff??Women see a brick-and-mortar brand modified for online ? and are basically being asked by an old friend,? ?Does this dress make me look fat?? Just so you all know, one time I was trying on clothes, and my wife wasn?t around, so when I came out of the dressing room, there happened to be a woman there probably waiting for her partner to come out of the dressing room, and I just looked at her, and she looked at me, and I said, ?Does this make me look fat?? She laughed and gave me an answer. So, you know, I really don?t care about those things, the gender aspect, but, it does, if you really want to have something that can lock into your mind, women see a modified brand go online, ?Does this dress make me look fat?? The other half audience ? the men can now begin to despise me ? men see a brick-and-mortar brand modified for online, and they ask, ?What happened to you, buddy? You don?t look the same.? These two responses are so different and speak at such a high level to gender marketing differences that your listeners have to pay attention?women are being asked by their friend, if the friend is still acceptable; men are questioning if the old relationship still exist?two very different psychological ways of interpreting the same information. The difference is, ?I need your help,? versus, ?You?re different?can I still trust you?? OK? So, if you?re transferring a male-oriented brick-and-mortar to online?few changes.

Chris Bjorklund: ?Don?t mess with it.?

Joseph Carrabis: Don?t mess with it?you can go nuts with the rest of the page, because once men realize it?s their same old friend, they?ll get in the car and go for a ride, ?Yes, let?s go right over.? OK? Once men recognize, ?That?s I?m familiar with,? the rest of the page, you can go nuts. But if you alter the brand or logo, it can stop the male audience from even getting in the car, or even going to the next page.

Chris Bjorklund: I could talk about this for the entire show, but I know we have a lot more questions for you. When I was thinking about finding some websites that we?d pull up here during the show?I was cruising around, and it seemed as though when I looked at, maybe a dozen sites, the color that stood out for me, most of time, was blue. There was blue in the background, blue in these little icons floating around?blue, blue, blue. I know that you found that blue ? blue is everybody?s favorite color?

Joseph Carrabis: Pretty much, if you ask people. You know, just walk down the street and say, ?Excuse me, what?s your favorite color?? ?Blue.? ?Blue.? ?Blue.? ?Blue.? ?Blue.? ?Blue.? Yes. Yes.

Chris Bjorklund: And, do you find that it?s really overused, and that marketers don?t understand how to use it online, and beyond online?

Joseph Carrabis: Well, that?s a really excellent question. One of the reasons that blue gets used a lot is because it?s one of the few colors that men can see. I mean, men tend to have a genetic color blindness, and they?ll switch certain colors, so, you know, it?s interesting because the colors they tend to switch are of those six that we?ve talked about earlier. So, if you show them a blue, they?ll go, ?OK,? and blue is a good color in Western society?Western society, I?ll just make sure we mentioning that because color interpretation ? not recognition but interpretation, is very, very culturally based. So, blue is a wonderful color?if you want people to continue doing something, that they?re already doing, like they?re following a link to a conversion page, that?s why nine times out of ten, if you don?t change anything, that link color tends to be blue; when you want people to remember what you?re showing them, i.e. in your branding them, halo something with blue; when you want people to slow down in their browsing, make sure they understand they understand your value proposition, or you want to stop them from going to a competitor sight, put blue on the screen; when you want people to feel joy, because blue is one of those ?joy? colors?that?s color iconography, blue and joy?for example, joy, ?I should convert because, wow, this is going to make me feel happy and joyful,? use blue. And one of the big reasons we tell people, ?If you want visitors to experience change, to have a sense that ?this is changing,? ?this is new,? now, whenever you want to introduce the concept of ?new? and ?change,? you want to make sure people are comfortable.? It goes back to what we?re talking about earlier?comfortable and familiar, so, if you want people to experience change, like you?re introducing a new product line under a brand, but you don?t want the visitor to change what they?re doing, upgrading to a new service or get a higher price point item, blue. That?s why blue gets used, because it has these qualities. The other part to your question??Do I think they?re using blue properly?? Well, you know, my business, NextStage, is a consulting house, primarily?so, no, of course, they?re not doing it; they have to hire us to tell them that.

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: Some of them are doing it well; some of them are not?it?s like everything else?there are companies that ? you know, the IBM Blue logo?beautifully done, simple, clean, neat, that?s it.

Chris Bjorklund: Solid.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes. Exactly. You know ? again, I apologize, I?m not trying to ? I?m part brander, but on our NextStage site, we have our brand in the background of the site?there?s a watermark, and it?s blue?again, you know, we?re actually using it fairly well, I like to think, because we?re making use of the halo effect, or making use of the colors I mentioned earlier. And what it is it?s focusing people on what?s on the page. So, some companies do it really well, some not so good.

Chris Bjorklund: Well, let?s talk about that and go to a website right now. One of the ones I selected for you to critique is ?United?s Low Cost Airline Ted, that?s flyted.com, and I?ve just pulled it up, and, I guess, when you open the home page, there?s a plane flying to the left ?

Joseph Carrabis: Right.

Chris Bjorklund: What do you like about this site, and what don?t you like about this site?

Joseph Carrabis: ?What do I like about this site?? I like that I can leave this site very quickly.

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: What I don?t like about it?when I call it up, there?s ? and I will ask you?what?s that border color?

Chris Bjorklund: Orange?

Joseph Carrabis: Well, see, that?s the thing, it indicates you?re not really sure. Now, the fact that you had to take time to figure that out, let?s me know that your brain, your mind, is having a state of confusion. Even though it?s a border color, it?s a distracting border color. It?s not serving to ? it does drive your eye to the central content of the page, however, you cannot not see it, and as this ? for listeners who are on the ?flyted? site that I?m looking at, that same color is repeated a few times in their little dynamic content. That?s a nice trick because it drives your attention, it pushes your attention; at the same time, it?s not a nice trick because that color is a confusing color?the brain does not know how to accept it, there is no reference in memory for it, so to speak; it?s one of those unfamiliar things, it?s a distraction. And you have to talk to United to find out, ?Is this being a successful site for them?? My guess is it?s not a successful site?if they don?t know why, well, ?Pay attention,? it?s because of that color usage. The other thing you mentioned?the plane flying off to the left, I don?t know who their audience is, I have an idea of who their audience is, because one of the images that comes up is that their flight routes ? but even so, in a Western cultural paradigm?Western cultural metaphor?that is not a good idea. A better idea would be to have the plane flying towards the right because there are action items on the right.

Chris Bjorklund: Oh, good point.

Joseph Carrabis: ?Travel from, where, to, departing, roundtrip, one-way ??

Chris Bjorklund: Let?s take a look at another site now?how about Apple, apple.com?

Joseph Carrabis: Apple is ? these people need to win awards, if they haven?t already?I?m giving them my vote. Again, when I come to the site ? now, here is color usage, here is age marketing, just ? ?My God,? these people have got a lock on it; they need to be teaching the rest of us how to do it.

Chris Bjorklund: It?s brilliant.

Joseph Carrabis: It?s brilliant because the whole concept of the colors, and the placement of those central iPhone images are coming into the mystery.

Chris Bjorklund: Let?s tell everybody this is ? if you?re not online right now, at apple.com, there is a bold, black background, and the headline says, ?Say Hello to iPhone,? and then there?s all the different elements and possibilities of the iPhone.

Joseph Carrabis: Yes. Yes. And it?s incredible because the people who really want an iPhone, they want to get into the mystery. That?s exactly the message that ?iPhoners? want at an unconscious level?they?re part of this ultra group that not everyone can enter because of cost, availability?there?s not a lot of text on the page, either you get or you don?t. It?s kind of, ?If you need another price, you can?t afford it? mentality, or, the other one I like to say is, ?You have to be this tall to get on this ride.? That?s what that image, that?s what that site is all about. You?ve been branded elsewhere, and you?re bring that desire to be branded with you to this site.

Chris Bjorklund: It?s so powerful and it is exciting?it is so exciting, and you can see why these early adapters are just ? they?re just ready to pull out the credit card and order one now online, or wherever they can get it?get in line for one ?

Joseph Carrabis: Exactly.

Chris Bjorklund: ? which is what people did; and the last one I chose for you talk about is, for a product called ?Jitterbug, and when you pull that up ? by the way, the Jitterbug is a special kind of telephone, it?s not an iPhone ?

Joseph Carrabis: It?s the anti-iPhone.

Chris Bjorklund: ? and the site has a lot of red on it, and the lettering is very interesting, too, that they use it, the name itself is in red with a lot of white background?that?s Jitterbug. Could you describe what that product is and how they?re trying to get to their audience?

Joseph Carrabis: The Jitterbug is, in my estimation, a brilliant, brilliant product that can only exist at this point in time, because now you have the baby boomers that are aging, who this product really speaks to. There are two versions of the Jitterbug phone?one has got three buttons on it??Operator,? ?Tow,? and ?911,? that?s it. OK? Three buttons, it?s a cellphone?it?s got three buttons?basically, ?Help,? ?Help,? and ?Help me real fast.?

Chris Bjorklund: OK.

Joseph Carrabis: And the other version of the Jitterbug is more like what you?re familiar with, it has the numeric keypad ? in both cases, both phones, the buttons are large, the visual screen?you have a little screen on the phone?has large text, the buttons which are not numeric buttons are, ?Yes,? and ?No.? ?Yes? and ?No,? now, I like that because that makes decisions a lot easier for me. Not ?click, click, click, down, down, click, down, down, click??no, ?Yes? and ?No.? ?You want this?? ?Yes.? ?You want this?? ?No.? It?s really a beautiful, beautiful device for the market that it?s addressing; specifically to this homepage for the Jitterbug?it boldly and directly shows you its products. The menu system is like the product?it?s simple, its text is simple, the options are simple. You mentioned the use of red?let?s consider that?the red is in the upper right hand corner, OK? So, you?re eyes are going to be drawn to it because red, again, is one of those colors, and what is in there? ?Special offer, get a free car charger.? ?OK, I?m in. Don?t go any further, I?m good.? And the real central action items: phones, services, accessories, and customer support?simple. ?Don?t give me 57 menu items; give me just enough.? ?How many buttons are on this phone?? ?Four, three.? ?How many menu items?? ?Three, four.? ?OK.? I mean it really is an excellent job of addressing a very specific audience.

Chris Bjorklund: And they say, ?Perfectly simple, with ?

Joseph Carrabis: Yes.

Chris Bjorklund: ? very large type.?

Joseph Carrabis: That?s true. It drives your eyes; the color usage drives your eyes where they want you to have your eyes; unlike Apple?s mystery, which was great for its audience; this audience, the Jitterbug audience, doesn?t want mystery; they want ?obvious.? The whole page is designed with that audience in mind. It?s a wonderful ? it really is a wonderful demonstration of color?color iconography done correctly. Let me give you an anecdote?I was on vacation, and that?s ? for people who know me, that?s another way of saying, ?I?ve got to do research differently,? but, anyway, in the course of the week, I must have seen probably two to three thousand people walking around, nobody my age had an iPhone; people who did have an iPhone were the younger, upscale, text-savvy demographic, fit exactly. One of the first projects, when I got back from vacation, or the first projects I got involved with was analyzing audience responses to presidential candidates at rallies. Again, people with iPhones fit the demographic perfectly; the rest of us ? well, we might not have been Jitterbugging, but I think a lot of us wanted to. So, you know, this is really an example of color usage, color iconography, color marketing done so well that they can capture their audiences?both Apple and Jitterbug, they are to be congratulated.

Chris Bjorklund: Joseph, we?re just about out of time, unfortunately. I know there?s so much more we can talk about, and I know people will be looking forward to reading about your research and your insights in your blog on AllBusiness.com, but this is a long-term study, you said ?

Joseph Carrabis: Oh, yes.

Chris Bjorklund: ? I?m sure you can?t really make any specific predictions about what this is all going to look like in another five years, or few years, but, certainly, things are always changing, aren?t they?

Joseph Carrabis: Things are definitely changing. One of the things that we strive to figure out in our research is the base level?what doesn?t change through time? That?s one of the reasons we came up with those six colors that everyone can see. That doesn?t change?that?s hard-wired into the brain. But when you get into what will change, well, age, preferences, the lines of the demographics?they were blurring?now, they?re not; now, they?re becoming very, very, distinct. Culture, however, is it used to be blurred; now, it?s becoming very, very distinct; you?re having different cultural groups really asserting their economic and political muscle, which is a wonderful thing?I think that?s great. But that does change color, color iconography and how it?s used in marketing. These things will change, but you know, that?s why we call the company NextStage Evolution, because things will always change.

Chris Bjorklund: Joseph, thanks so much for being on the show today?I really, really enjoyed it.

Joseph Carrabis: My pleasure.

Chris Bjorklund: We?ve been talking about the use of colors and color imagery in direct-response marketing and e-branding with one of the top analysts in the country, Joseph Carrabis, founder of NextStage Evolution. If you have feedback on this show, or would like to recommend a guest, send your e-mail to podcast@allbusiness.com. I?m Chris Bjorklund, thanks for listening.