EUMC Interview with the two Romani Members of the European Parliament
With EU Enlargement fresh faces with new ideas entered the European Parliament. Among them are two Hungarian MEPs belonging to the Romani minority. In an interview with the EUMC, Lívia Járóka (European People's Party / European Democrats) and Viktória Mohácsi (Alliance of Liberals and Democrats for Europe) explain how they plan to advance the Roma issue on the EU policy agenda. They have already achieved one success. On 28 April 2005, the European Parliament adopted its first ever resolution on the situation of Roma in the enlarged EU (see end of article). Lívia Járóka and Viktória Mohácsi were among the initiators.
Interview of Lívia Járóka (LJ) and Viktória Mohácsi (VM) by Andreas Accardo (AA)
AA: As the only two Roma representatives, you are quite a rare species among the 732 Members of the European Parliament. How has been your experience in your first few months here in Brussels and Strasbourg?
LJ: At the beginning I was very naďve to think that - because it's a pan-European issue of such importance - people in all political parties would be sensitive to Roma issues and very interested. Instead, I found that the discussion on Roma had been going on for 10 years without fresh ideas, very little input received from the Roma side and no meaningful cooperation with civil rights organisations. Politicians did not address Roma issues systematically, but ad-hoc as a catchy topic that at times attracts media interest. The real work remained undone - like defining a comprehensive strategy and setting the Roma agenda for the next 10 years in the European Union. So, first of all, I had to realise that progress would be slow and positive change not come easily. I have since changed strategy, approached people differently and made new alliances.
VM: I have come to the Parliament because I am not satisfied with how the Roma issue is addressed in the EU. I would like to put pressure on the Commission, the different EU institutions and the political level here in the European Parliament. The EU needs to act against segregated classrooms, discrimination in employment, "ghettoisation" of Romani communities, and to ensure that the legal system protects everybody including Romani people. After a few months in the Parliament, I feel we are moving in the right direction. At the beginning, the colleagues in the ALDE group thought that here I was coming with a new issue competing with the other important concerns - human rights, economic freedom and social justice. Yet, now they have understood that the Roma issue is part of all that. I have heard people say that they were ashamed that they had not considered Romani issues in previous declarations, resolutions, reports, etc.
AA: What are some of the priorities for the European Union and the Member States in tackling discrimination against Roma?
LJ: For me the most urgent issue is the educational segregation, which Viktória is dealing with. Secondly, discrimination in health institutions and lack of access to health care is adding to the bad socio-economic situation of the Roma. The third area is employment, where it is not even a question of segregation, as Roma basically have no jobs at all. And lastly what undermines any sort of partnership between Roma and the majority society is the lack of proper living conditions. About 40-50% of Roma still live in totally segregated areas also in Western Europe. They live in Roma settlements with no water, no electricity, no gas, no doctor and no police.
VM: As Lívia mentioned my key concern - the educational segregation, I may add the forced sterilisation of Romani women which is a very concerning issue right now. These acts go rather unaddressed due to the difficulty in proving the racist motivation and sometimes the crime in itself. Medical personnel deny the fact that the sterilisation has been done without consent. Bringing such a case to court is very difficult.
AA: Discrimination against Roma and the need to improve the living situation for the Roma are often reported as challenges for the 'ret## quote## Member States, less so for the 'old' EU-15. Is this divide into East and West Europe justified?
LJ: Certainly not. Besides many other misunderstandings, this is one of the issues I find difficult to demystify. The need to address the Roma issue is not restricted to Eastern Europe. For instance, Greece, Spain and Portugal have been facing the same issue. In general, all Member States are very reluctant to be scrutinised on Roma issues.
VM: The difference is that in the new Member States more NGOs or human rights organisations focus on Roma rights. This is why from East European countries we hear more often evidence on police brutality, shantytowns, lack of access to health care or segregation in education and other fields. Yet, cases of such discrimination exist in all EU countries.
AA: What do you consider effective policy instruments to improve the situation of Roma?
VM: Policy-makers in Member State governments started to develop targeted Roma policies consisting of punctual projects. For instance, in certain areas where unemployment among Roma reaches 90%, they implement training programmes or an income generation project. Yet, usually the projects - though expensive - do not have lasting impact. At the end of the project, there are again no jobs and the economic situation stays the same. This is why in my opinion what yields sustainable results is an effective non-discrimination policy. The best approach is to ensure equal treatment for Romani people seeking employment. We must move away from the concept of "special programs/projects" and have anti-discrimination form the base for policy making. I strongly believe that the roots of the problems that Roma face today is widespread anti-Romani sentiment and discrimination. Only after effectively combating discrimination can we expect a better situation.
LJ: General policies and measures to improve education, employment, health and living conditions are all extremely relevant for the Roma. Once we regard Roma issues as general socio-economic questions, we are ready for mainstreaming Romani concerns into policy approaches. Culture and identity are Roma issues that can be tackled with a targeted approach. Yet, their socio-economic situation must become part of mainstream policies.
VM: My experience tells me that governments often develop programmes that in the end do not really benefit the Romani communities. For instance, in Hungary in the pre-accession period PHARE projects were assumingly meant to decrease the number of Romani children in special education. Yet, the policy of "best practice projects" proved to be a waste of money and led to more Romani children being segregated into "special needs schools" - in essence institutions for the mentally disabled. We need to change the approach and instead ensure that Roma have equal access to the normal education system. I think we only need targeted programmes to give Roma access to mainstream services. In my view, a targeted intervention is: retesting Romani children who have been sent to special needs schools, provide extra financial per-capita support and introduce legal reforms. In other words, we need a policy of targeted action based on the concept of anti-discrimination. If discriminatory practices are not allowed then Romani children will naturally have access to quality education.
AA: Are you saying that we do not have sufficient knowledge about the situation of Roma and thus fail in developing effective responses to fighting their discrimination and social exclusion?
VM: I do not necessarily think that the lack of knowledge is the key issue. The society must learn not to discriminate, to refrain from racist action. Laws must reinforce anti-discrimination and punish such actions, in schools, at the work place or other spheres of public life.
LJ: Policy-makers in Europe are generally unaware of the factual situation of Roma. Most have stereotypical images that do not reflect the reality. I have been disappointed to see that there is so little political will to really understand the difficulties faced by Roma. Politicians are ready to accept exotic images of "Gypsies". They are happy to deal with the issue when it comes to culture but fail to assist in creating a real understanding of what it means to be a Roma in 2005 in Europe. The little reliable scientific knowledge and data we have is not strong enough to rectify all those old stereotypes that have been circulating in politics and in every-day life in the past. The lack of knowledge prevents us from designing effective policies. We cannot say if positive discrimination, mainstreaming or targeting works. We fail to see how large the gap is between ambition and reality; that for instance an anti-discrimination law does not automatically mean that Roma would no longer be discriminated against. The Commission has also failed to tell the Member States that implementation is much more important than writing a law.
VM: The Racial Equality Directive in itself is not very detailed. In the beginning some Member States maintained that their constitution was already sufficient to ensure equality. Yet, these constitutions have existed for many years also in the new Member States, and still there is discrimination. This is why we need to carefully look at implementation. For instance, the Equality Bodies need to take on cases of discrimination, take visible and strong decisions on the complaints and protect the rights of Romani people and others.
AA: Is there any hope?
LJ: Yes, if there is a stronger push for a proper anti-discrimination policy for Roma in areas such as education, employment, housing and health care. This does at the moment not really take place as there is too little input at the European level, apart from a few NGOs and maybe us two Parliamentarians. What we would like to see in the long-term is: more Roma employment in the context of the Lisbon strategy; non-discrimination in the work place; desegregated schools; strong civil rights organisations; assistance by the governments; and proper monitoring of the Member States by the Commission. All this remains an illusion at the moment because there is too little continuous interest and discussion on the issue.
VM: The only hope for the European Romani people is the European Union as they have given up on their home governments helping them. A recent survey in Hungary asked people whether they felt Hungarian or European citizens. According to surveys Romani people feel Europeans. Roma lost confidence in national governments having experienced too often how these have failed. Today Roma continue to be discriminated against every day and in every sphere of life. I am here to see that it is not hopeless, and that Roma will enjoy being European citizens and be proud of it.
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The European Parliament's resolution on Roma On 28 April 2005, the European Parliament adopted a joint resolution on the situation of Roma in Europe. The resolution notes that Roma in Europe "are suffering racial discrimination and in many cases are subject to severe structural discrimination, poverty and social exclusion". It also highlights the every-day difficulties faced by Roma such as racist attacks, hate speech, physical attacks by extremist groups, unlawful evictions and police harassment motivated by Anti-Gypsyism and Romaphobia. The Parliament urged a better economic, social and political integration of Roma in the EU and called on the Council, Commission and the Member States to consider recognising the Roma as a European minority and to do more to improve their situation. View the resolution at: |