JIM LEHRER: Mr. President welcome. You've participated in one vice presidential debate and five presidential debates. Generally, what kind of an experience was it for you.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Ugly, I don't like 'em.

JIM LEHRER: Why not?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, partially I wasn't too good at 'em. Secondly, there's some of its contrived. Show business. You prompt to get the answers ahead of time. Now this guy, you got Bernie Shaw on the panel and here's what he's probably gonna ask you. You got Leslie Stahl over here and she's known to go for this and that, I want to be sure I remember what Leslie's going to ask and get this answer no that answers not quite concise and that's always. There's a certain artificiality to it, lack of spontaneity to it. And, I don't know, I just felt uncomfortable about it. In the big league debates, I mean in the big time debates, I didn't mind kind of debating the other candidates during so-called debates not really debates. But,those big time things it was tension city, Jim.

JIM LEHRER: And did you, did you feel you were, you said you didn't think you were good at it.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: No, I wasn't particularly good at it.

JIM LEHRER: Why? What was the problem?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, I don't know ask those critics that said I wasn't particularly good at it. I thought I did, give you an example. The last debate with Clinton and H. Ross, H. Ross Perot. Are my kind of handlers, guys that I respect in this business. God you did well that was wonderful, that guy was 40 seconds before I was back in the dressing room I heard Tim Russert declare this was a clear victory for President-- for Governor Clinton. And, I don't know I thought I did reasonably well. But I guess I didn't communicate as well as I'd liked. But that wasn't, you know I mean heck, I remember Ronald Reagan debating and he didn't get all bogged down on things like issues but he was good. Much better than I was.

JIM LEHRER: How did you prepare for those things?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, you got a team around you and its rather hectic the concentrated preparation and they sugge-- go through the questions that each of the panelist are going to ask.

JIM LEHRER: You rehearsed? I mean you literally went in a room...

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Yeah, you rehearsed what you ought to say, oh yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if we did that for all of them. There were a lot of debates as you mentioned I was involved in. The tensest was I think, maybe not the most at stake, but the tensest was against Ferraro, Congressman Ferraro.

JIM LEHRER: Why, why was this so tense?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, I think there was a lot of -- I think the press was automatically divided. I think a lot of the females in the press corps said this was one of us. You could here them clapping. The room behind, I couldn't but the spinmeisters--

JIM LEHRER: Press people were, press people were applauding...

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Absolutely, the spinmeisters were behind the scene listening as the journalists were clapping and it was, it was, it was a, tough one I mean you didn't want to be guilty of what was the word she used, a having a little difficulty with my memory here-- patronize...

JIM LEHRER: Patronize, don't patronize--

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Don't patronize, don't patronize me. I mean there was this..

JIM LEHRER: That was her, that was the big line of that debate.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I think she was ready She'd probably been rehearsed for that and I can't even remember what it was and I said let me help you with that or something. And all that brought the crowd to its feet. Its show business, Jim, its not really debating or getting into detail on issues or what your experience has been.

Its, you know, in the debate down in Richmond... What I didn't know is that they had rehearsed and identified some of the questioners and there was some guy that was, you know, so clearly was going to be antagonistic to me and the way the questions were asked and I was told later, that "How about you back there in the 4th row," and they singled him out to be the contentious questioner of George Bush. I mean that's, that's show business. Now should I have been able to react better and do a better job I guess probably.

JIM LEHRER: The Richmond debate, Mr. President, you know you caught a lot of heat for looking at your watch. What was that all about, remember that?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well I wasn't too conscious of it at all

JIM LEHRER: I know. Well do you remember that?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: It was, "He's bored." Yeah, oh God, do I remember. I took a huge hit. That's another thing I don't like debates, you look at your watch and they say that he shouldn't have any business running for president. He's bored. He's out of this thing, he's not with it and we need change. They took a little incident like that to show that I was, you know, out of it. They made a huge thing out of that. Now, was I glad when the damn thing was over. Yeah, and maybe that's why I was looking at it, only 10 more minutes of this crap, I mean.(Jim laughs) Go ahead and use it. I'm a free spirit now.

JIM LEHRER: No that's in there, that's on the tape don't worry...

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: That's in. Run it. Make that the heading as far as I'm concerned.

JIM LEHRER: ...of all of these debates...

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: If I said that then I would've done better. But your on guard, you don't want to make a mistake. You don't want to say anything that's gonna offend.

JIM LEHRER: Did you ever walk off one of those stages regretting that you hadn't said something just like that or that you hadn't reacted?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: No because its like a ballgame in a way, a certain adrenaline factor. The adrenaline flow. Very much like competitive athletics which I love. Debates I hate. But the adrenaline factor is the same. So when its over. I never left thinking I really screwed this up, I really did a lousy job. I left thinking I could have done better on that answer or something. But I never left really depressed that it was over cause I didn't have one more minute to make my key point on my policy towards Bosnia or something like that.

JIM LEHRER: Of all these debates do you think any of them played any significant role in the outcome of the election?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I think Ronald Reagan's debate against Jimmy Carter did. Because, I think a lot of people saw that debate as they saw these debates and I think they, I think up to that point many people felt that Ronald Reagan couldn't go head-to-head with a seated President. And he disarmed them with humor and "there you go again", I mean this stuff... And I think that of the ones that I was around was probably as critical as any.

JIM LEHRER: What about your own any of your own? Any of your own? Do you think for instance that you beat Dukakis because of anything having to do with the debates with him?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, I think Dukakis got hurt by an answer he gave in the debate out at UCLA in California when Bernie Shaw asked him some question about if your wife was raped I think was the question... And, Mike Dukakis seemed flustered by it and, instead of saying I'd kill him if I could get my hands on him, there was some kind of politically correct answer. And I think that hurt him. I really think that, you know, I shouldn't be critical of him, cause I'm sure I make plenty of mistakes. But I think that particular answer stands out as one at least in my memory that might have been a so-called defining moment. I don't know whether it changed any polling numbers or anything like that.

JIM LEHRER: Is there a particular moment when you look back on all these debates and say "God, I was really good when I did such and such"?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Well, I thought I was good at some of them, but I might have been the only one. So, no...

JIM LEHRER: Nothing that sticks out...

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Until you came along I'm trying to forget the whole damn experience of those debates. Cause I think its too much show business, and too much prompting, too much artificiality, and not really debates. There rehearsed appearances.

JIM LEHRER: Is there any connection between being a good debater and being President of the United States?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Not really, between being a good debater and a good President, no.

JIM LEHRER: In other words, does it test the skill that the American people need to know?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I can't see the connection, I can't see it. I mean, you can have a good president that might not be the best in the top of his game in a staged debate. But maybe he can do it quietly, maybe he can do it without having a hair part and a make-up just right and a smile at the right time. Maybe he can do it with getting good people around you and giving them credit and trying to do a quiet and decent job for your country. And so I don't see the connection, frankly. Cause there's no reaction under fire that's comfortable that I see... You know I vowed when I became President not to talk about the loneliest toughest job in the world and I didn't. But, I don't see the comparison between debate and handling yourself in the so-called loneliest toughest job in the world...

JIM LEHRER: Do you think they should be a required part of the process?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: Nope.

JIM LEHRER: No?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: No, I think you ought to do what's best to get you elected. And if that's best that you have no debates, too bad for all you debate-lovers because I really think a candidate should be entitled to that. If there was a guy that stuttered and couldn't say, couldn't finish a sentence -- I was the guy who just said English was my second language so maybe I'm a little -- No, but if your somebody that looks lousy and has a handicap in speaking and yet is a brilliant contribution to as a public servant or an academic. I mean why should that one thing be mandatory-- a place were he's gonna come out less well than the opponent who might be a great big fine deep voice professional debater [and] an absolutely impossible president. So why should a person be burdened with that that decision to have to debate. I mean that's my view: Do what's best to get you elected. And try to be a good President, now part of that is taking your case to the people in various ways. I mean, I don't think you, you know that you shouldn't have some contact with the American people through public performance but put me down as negative...

JIM LEHRER: But here you sit as one of the most successful politicians in modern U.S. history and yet one of the major vehicles that people use to get elected you despise.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I don't know if it helped me or hurt me to get elected. I'd like someone to show me that it helped me to get elected than I might change my mind but I don't think so. I don't think so... I think its kind of a politically correct thing. You got to have x-number of debates, you got a commission. We're all going to get together Republicans and Democrats and decree and to debate survival, why?

JIM LEHRER: When you ran against Dukakis, when he ran against you I should say, did you, did you not want to have, the conventional wisdom at the time was... that you and Jim Baker were not interested in having a debate if you could avoid it, was that correct?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I can't remember. But I think it might have been. Maybe for the reasons that I am now unburdening my soul with. Things I never really said before incidentally. But I don't ever remember being particularly "This is the way I'm gonna propel myself from, you know the Presidency, or you know get to be Vice President again," or whatever it was these numbers of debates I had. I can't ever remember sitting around and saying, "gosh let's hurry up and get these debates going that'll win it for me." Nope I don't think so.

JIM LEHRER: And that was also true in [1992], you weren't interested in it then either?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: No, I don't think, I think maybe '92 was because of the third party. Giving Perot that, you know, kind of standing that comes from being out there. I wasn't particularly enthusiastic about that at all. I figured he would be going after me not Clinton. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't I don't know. So I don't remember much enthusiasm for that.

JIM LEHRER: Let me play devil's advocate with you for a moment, just on a personal, you said it yourself just a moment ago that your very competitive and you were an athlete before you went into politics and you wanna a win and the adrenaline, but the adrenaline did not make this a pleasant experience for you.

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: No, 'cause I would concede that I don't think I was really good at debating. I mean I love tennis but I can't wait I know my serve stinks. But I was a pretty good tennis player, I think I was pretty good politician. At least I won the presidency not too many others did that. But I think that debating was not my particular skill. I don't see a great, trying to be objective here, I just don't see it should be a mandatory part of the process. It is and always will be probably now for now.

JIM LEHRER: Do think its just an inevitability?

PRESIDENT GEORGE BUSH: I think its got it locked in. I think its kinda locked in. Part of the process.

JIM LEHRER: Mr. President, thank you very much.